Doubt

[tempter]

Nahum 1:2-3

2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;
the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The Lord takes vengeance on his foes
and vents his wrath against his enemies.
3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power;
the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.
​

Taking a few words out of a thought doesn't prove anything other than saying "look what I can do".
Remember I said "There is no punishment (nor God in the biblical sense) - there's just life. Life happens. And during life, good things happen as do bad things. People tend to associate these things with a deity to allow for the unexplained to be explained via the deity - or supernatural means."
Thus, something that doesn't exist can't punish. :beach:

 

[tempter]

Although you are led to believe differently by the media and Hollywood, not everyone in the south USA is a mouth-breathing reactionary evangelical. Most are as religiously sensible as any other part of the US. For instance, you could have made the same statement about devote Catholics in the northern states or the weird cult types out west.

I didn't say that, as I live in the south. But I can attest that in many areas of the south, there are some crazy religious zealots.
Your last part of your statement is true as well.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't get why God would punish people like child soldiers that have never even heard of God or those who grew up in an environment making it impossible to follow God by sending them to hell. Or gay people for being born gay. Someone please explain this to me. Another point of concern. What about before marriage was invented? Sex before marriage was the only option. I'm not trying to disprove the bible I'm sure there's more to this.

I wouldn't assume that God does punish people for all that you've mentioned. I think that humanity would do well to stop making assumptions as to what God does and focus more on what we can do, in love, for others.

 

[skywrath32]

I don't get why God would punish people like child soldiers that have never even heard of God or those who grew up in an environment making it impossible to follow God by sending them to hell. Or gay people for being born gay. Someone please explain this to me. Another point of concern. What about before marriage was invented? Sex before marriage was the only option. I'm not trying to disprove the bible I'm sure there's more to this.

Bible was written by people not directly by God and how would we know if God really sends them to hell? Have you read the new testament? Follow God's will and youll be saved. You just need to be a good person thats all.

 

[islam abduallah]

I don't get why God would punish people like child soldiers that have never even heard of God or those who grew up in an environment making it impossible to follow God by sending them to hell. Or gay people for being born gay. Someone please explain this to me. Another point of concern. What about before marriage was invented? Sex before marriage was the only option. I'm not trying to disprove the bible I'm sure there's more to this.

according to my religion Allah won't punish who doesn't receive the message or hear about it Allah said "And never would We punish until We sent a messenger" quran 17:15

 

[Thief]

according to my religion Allah won't punish who doesn't receive the message or hear about it Allah said "And never would We punish until We sent a messenger" quran 17:15

So this is, in other words....fair warning?

Such as....
Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.

I believe we receive, as we do unto others.

If I go to heaven...(maybe)...my brothers will receive me as I did unto others.
If I practice generosity and do good things...
I will be greeted in the same manner by one and all, in heaven.

But what of that fellow that harmed me in this life?
As he follows behind me....
won't my brothers recieve him?...as he did unto me?

What of the man that harmed my family?
Will he not receive his reward?.... as many times as he is greeted.

 

[islam abduallah]

So this is, in other words....fair warning?

you can say yes.

Such as....
Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.

I believe we receive, as we do unto others.

simply it's our echo

If I go to heaven...(maybe)...my brothers will receive me as I did unto others.
If I practice generosity and do good things...
I will be greeted in the same manner by one and all, in heaven.

there's no another option in the heaven as i believe, if you are in the heaven so you will be received very well, no sadness, bad memories or anything bad there.

But what of that fellow that harmed me in this life?
As he follows behind me....
won't my brothers recieve him?...as he did unto me?

What of the man that harmed my family?
Will he not receive his reward?.... as many times as he is greeted.

we believe that "Allah is absolute Just Judge, he said 'Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward" 4:40 and said too "So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it,And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it." 99:7-8
When the Day of Resurrection comes, a man's wealth and capital will be his Hasanaat (good deeds). If he had done wrong to any people, they will take from his hasanaat to the extent that he mistreated them. If he does not have any hasanaat, or if his hasanaat run out, then some of their sayi`aat (bad deeds) will be taken and added to his burden.

about who harmed you or any of your family or any other creature, our prophet Mohamed described him as bankrupt, the prophet asked his companions one day "Do you know who is the one who is bankrupt?" They said, 'The bankrupt is the one who has no money and no possessions.' He said, 'Among my Ummah 'nation", the one who is bankrupt is the one who will come on the Day of Resurrection with prayer and fasting and Zakah "charity" (to his credit), but he will come having insulted this one, slandered that one, consumed the wealth of this one and shed the blood of that one, and beaten that one. So they will all be given some of his hasanaat, and when his hasanaat "good deeds credit" run out, before judgment is passed, some of their sins will be taken and cast onto him, then he will be cast into the Fire.'" (Muslim: 4/1998, Hadith no. 2581)

 

[islam abduallah]

and our prophet said too ""Whoever wronged his brother with regard to his honor or any other matter, should seek his forgiveness today, before there are no longer any Dinars, or Dirhams; and if he has any righteous deeds, they will be taken from him, in accordance with the wrong he did; and if he has no hasanaat, some of the sayi`aat of his counterpart will be taken and added to his burden:" (Bukhari: Kitaab al-Mazaalim, Baab man kaanat lahu mazlamah 'inda rajul, Fath al-Baari, 5/101)"

there are a lot of other prophet sayings in the following link
Articles and FAQs about Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), Quran, Hadith, Woman, Fiqh and Fatwa.

all of this is according to our belief, in your opinion is it fair enough?

 

[Thief]

and our prophet said too ""Whoever wronged his brother with regard to his honor or any other matter, should seek his forgiveness today, before there are no longer any Dinars, or Dirhams; and if he has any righteous deeds, they will be taken from him, in accordance with the wrong he did; and if he has no hasanaat, some of the sayi`aat of his counterpart will be taken and added to his burden:" (Bukhari: Kitaab al-Mazaalim, Baab man kaanat lahu mazlamah 'inda rajul, Fath al-Baari, 5/101)"

there are a lot of other prophet sayings in the following link
Articles and FAQs about Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), Quran, Hadith, Woman, Fiqh and Fatwa.

all of this is according to our belief, in your opinion is it fair enough?

The words are different, but the basic theme is there.

But I don't think of deeds as a collective...as if a treasure.

I think of such things as a paly to the nature of a spirit.
If we walk among angels it is by their allowance....grace.

How can anyone walk among angels without grace?

 

[islam abduallah]

The words are different, but the basic theme is there.

But I don't think of deeds as a collective...as if a treasure.

I think of such things as a paly to the nature of a spirit.
If we walk among angels it is by their allowance....grace.

How can anyone walk among angels without grace?

you can make the grace, we believe that the well devoted people is better than angels

 

[Thief]

you can make the grace, we believe that the well devoted people is better than angels

That's a different perspective....but may have some foundation.
Man was created a little less than the angels...and yet the angels serve Man.

I have a brief story if you care to see it.

 

[islam abduallah]

Man was created a little less than the angels...

why you believe that? i believe no, in our holy book "quran" Allah ordered the angels to prostrate to Adam not to worship him but to show honor to him

you can read quran verses of chapter 2 from verse: 30 to 34 to get my point

I have a brief story if you care to see it.

surly will be glad to listen to it

 

[Thief]

why you believe that? i believe no, in our holy book "quran" Allah ordered the angels to prostrate to Adam not to worship him but to show honor to him

you can read quran verses of chapter 2 from verse: 30 to 34 to get my point

surly will be glad to listen to it

Man was created a little less than the angelic.

There is a long standing belief that the fall of the angelic..one third of heaven...was brought on by a division....an argument.

God...having made Man...a little less than the angelic...said to the angels...
"Man is fragile...follow after him and see to it, that he dash not his toes...nor his head."

One third of the angelic said "nay".
"For that Man is less than we are... He should be made to serve us."

There is nothing wrong in that logic.
Man does so unto lesser creatures in every way.

We... chain our dogs, and expect their loyalty...keeping to one master...even though it is their nature to run free in packs, and hunt at will.
We.... saddle and bridle our horses...and expect them to take us wherever we desire...and we break their spirits that they will obey.
We.... cage little birds..that they sing for our pleasure...but the little creature sings for a mate he will never find. There will be no nest...no offspring...and he will die in his solitude.
We...readily kill anything that cannot be made to serve us...any disobedient animal.

A fight broke out. Brother angel against Brother angel.
One third of the angelic fell from grace...losing their positions in heaven.
They lost their place because of an argument...concerning something that looks like you.
They want you dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their Brothers because of an
argument...concerning something that looks like you.

Do you not bear resemblance to the one third fallen?
Do you not perform unto lesser things...and your fellowman ...as you will?

Are you not concerned..what...or who...will be standing over you...
When you lay down to breath your last breathe?

That's the story I got.
Grew up with it.
Not biblical..... except to quote....'God made Man a little less than the angels'.

 

[islam abduallah]

Man was created a little less than the angelic.

There is a long standing belief that the fall of the angelic..one third of heaven...was brought on by a division....an argument.

God...having made Man...a little less than the angelic...said to the angels...
"Man is fragile...follow after him and see to it, that he dash not his toes...nor his head."

One third of the angelic said "nay".
"For that Man is less than we are... He should be made to serve us."

There is nothing wrong in that logic.

about falling of one third of angels due to an argument, i think it's against the nature of angels, as i believe Allah created the angels for certain missions and they don't have a free will "they not like us" to choose to obey or to disobey, they are not tested, they just do what they are ordered to do, some of them are responsible for revelations, taking people's souls when death, writing people's deeds and they don't have the option to disobey, so that they we believe that they are not in a test, they only obey, we have the option to obey and disobey, to believe or deny, to accept or reject, so that the righteous of us are considered better the angels.

Man does so unto lesser creatures in every way.

We... chain our dogs, and expect their loyalty...keeping to one master...even though it is their nature to run free in packs, and hunt at will.
We.... saddle and bridle our horses...and expect them to take us wherever we desire...and we break their spirits that they will obey.
We.... cage little birds..that they sing for our pleasure...but the little creature sings for a mate he will never find. There will be no nest...no offspring...and he will die in his solitude.
We...readily kill anything that cannot be made to serve us...any disobedient animal.

as a Muslim, i'm against all of these actions, to take the freedom of any creature to enjoy it is forbidden in my opinion, cage birds, chain dogs,... in my belief it's a selfish actions, and these creatures are not created for that, they have duty like us to do, we have no right to steal their freedom

A fight broke out. Brother angel against Brother angel.
One third of the angelic fell from grace...losing their positions in heaven.
They lost their place because of an argument...concerning something that looks like you.
They want you dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their Brothers because of an
argument...concerning something that looks like you.

Do you not bear resemblance to the one third fallen?
Do you not perform unto lesser things...and your fellowman ...as you will?

thanks for the advice, but i'm not doing arguing, i'm doing discussions and when i see the discussion moved to be an argument i shall leave it

Are you not concerned..what...or who...will be standing over you...
When you lay down to breath your last breathe?

as i believe it would be angels, and then they will throw my soul in heaven or hell according to it's deeds

 

[Thief]

about falling of one third of angels due to an argument, i think it's against the nature of angels, as i believe Allah created the angels for certain missions and they don't have a free will "they not like us" to choose to obey or to disobey, they are not tested, they just do what they are ordered to do, some of them are responsible for revelations, taking people's souls when death, writing people's deeds and they don't have the option to disobey, so that they we believe that they are not in a test, they only obey, we have the option to obey and disobey, to believe or deny, to accept or reject, so that the righteous of us are considered better the angels.


as a Muslim, i'm against all of these actions, to take the freedom of any creature to enjoy it is forbidden in my opinion, cage birds, chain dogs,... in my belief it's a selfish actions, and these creatures are not created for that, they have duty like us to do, we have no right to steal their freedom

thanks for the advice, but i'm not doing arguing, i'm doing discussions and when i see the discussion moved to be an argument i shall leave it


as i believe it would be angels, and then they will throw my soul in heaven or hell according to it's deeds

Sorry to see you are leaving the discussion.
We were just getting on with it.

I do see it odd...
That someone lacking freewill.....'will'...have the last action
concerning your soul.

 

[islam abduallah]

Sorry to see you are leaving the discussion.
We were just getting on with it.

I do see it odd...
That someone lacking freewill.....'will'...have the last action
concerning your soul.

I dont leave the discussion, I thought you dont like it by saying that I'm arguing.g and u believe that one third of angels fall because of that and I'm doing like that

But if u still wish to continue, I'm waiting for u

 

[Dubio]

I don't get why God would punish people like child soldiers that have never even heard of God or those who grew up in an environment making it impossible to follow God by sending them to hell. Or gay people for being born gay. Someone please explain this to me. Another point of concern. What about before marriage was invented? Sex before marriage was the only option. I'm not trying to disprove the bible I'm sure there's more to this.

There have been several similar threads like this one in the past. It's understandable. People like you and I don't like the evangelical doctrine of being Born Again or fry for an eternity or God issues infinite punishment for finite crimes.

They say it's in the Bible but the references I've read were vague.

Can anyone out there find a Biblical quote that unequivocally says you will burn in hell for an eternity for not being Born Again or not accepting God/Jesus?

 

[Thief]

There have been several similar threads like this one in the past. It's understandable. People like you and I don't like the evangelical doctrine of being Born Again or fry for an eternity or God issues infinite punishment for finite crimes.

They say it's in the Bible but the references I've read were vague.

Can anyone out there find a Biblical quote that unequivocally says you will burn in hell for an eternity for not being Born Again or not accepting God/Jesus?

As I came up in catholic schooling....there seemed plenty of discussion about accepting the Carpenter as Savior and without your agreement....heaven won't happen.

Most of that discussion came from the writings of Paul the Apostle.
He wrote about half of the new testament.
It is also said he never met the Carpenter.

But quotes are difficult in more ways than one.
Moving to the Carpenter more directly.....
'....no one comes to the Father but by Me....I am the way....'

That statement when taken literally sets the Carpenter as the pivot point.

But I don't think He meant it that way.
I suspect He was refering to the parables and teachings He made.
His parables set straight the mind and spirit.

Following at someone's heel is not the same as following what they teach.

 

[Thief]

I dont leave the discussion, I thought you dont like it by saying that I'm arguing.g and u believe that one third of angels fall because of that and I'm doing like that

But if u still wish to continue, I'm waiting for u

A shift in understanding is at hand.
I was not saying that you argue.....

I was telling a story in which the angels did argue.

 

[islam abduallah]

A shift in understanding is at hand.
I was not saying that you argue.....

I was telling a story in which the angels did argue.

Dont worry it's my poor English, so u can continue and tells me what's in your head