Dozens of German priests will defy the Vatican and live-stream blessings of gay couples

[danieldemol]

'Dozens of Catholic priests in Germany plan defy the Vatican and bless homosexual partnerships, with many set to live-stream the blessings online.

In March, the Vatican decreed that the Catholic Church cannot bless same-sex marriages. In response, more than 230 professors of Catholic theology in Germany – and other countries where German is spoken – signed a statement protesting the decision, the Associated Press reports.'

Source: Dozens of German priests will defy the Vatican and live-stream blessings of gay couples

Good on them for doing the right thing in standing up to the immorality of the Vatican in discriminating against gay couples in my opinion

 

[Estro Felino]

It is an act of love.
These priests do it out of love.
There is nothing unchristian about it.

 

[stvdv]

Good on them for doing the right thing in standing up to the immorality of the Vatican in discriminating against gay couples in my opinion

It's a huge institute, and this is a biggy for them. I wonder how long it will take before the Vatican will crumble, and becomes more gay about it

 

[Subduction Zone]

If not this generation the next will likely "see the light". Old prejudices sometimes die with old people. I can't remember how old I was when I realized that I had been wrong in this matter. I know it was some time before it went on the ballot in my state since I did vote to make gay marriage legally recognized. But I used to follow the same stale tropes that are being repeated today.

I reformed so I believe that the Catholic church will as well.

 

[pearl]

It's not the first time that German theologians have raised the ire of the Vatican.


The Chairman of the German Bishops' Conference and archbishop of Freiburg, Robert Zollitsch, believes that Christ’s crucifixion is just a psychological support for those who suffer.

On Holy Saturday, the archbishop denied the Expiatory Death of Christ in an interview with the German TV station 'Hessischer Rundfunk'.

Christ "did not die for the sins of the people as if God had needed a sacrificial offering or something like a scapegoat" - the archbishop said.

According to him the dying Christ simply expressed "solidarity" with the suffering of the people even to death.

This way, Christ showed, the archbishop said, that even suffering and pain have been taken up by God.

According to Zollitsch "this is the great perspective, the tremendous solidarity," that Christ went so far that he suffered all "with" me.

The journalist asked Zollitsch: "You would now no longer describe it in such a way that God gave his own son, because we humans were so sinful? You would no longer describe it like this?"

To this question Zollitsch replied with a clear "no".

He stated that God has given "his own son in solidarity with us unto his last agony” to show that: You mean so much to me that I go with you, and I am totally with you in every situation."

The archbishop seems to row back a tiny way when he says that one’s own sins were responsible that Christ "has become so involved with me". But he does not elaborate farther.

"Christ has become involved with me out of solidarity – out of free will" – the archbishop repeated in the interveiw.

According to Zollitsch Christ has "participated in carrying my debt, including the evil I have caused, in order to take this up into the world of God and hence to show also to me the way out of sin, guilt and from death to life.

I really think there is concern for a schism if the Church bends on certain issues; homosexual marriage, ordination of women etc.

 

[Glaurung]

Good on them for doing the right thing in standing up to the immorality of the Vatican in discriminating against gay couples in my opinion

Immoral according to the prevailing opinion of the current moment. Tomorrow may disagree with you.

In any case you either believe man is bound to observe the moral law as revealed by God and the natural law or you don't actually accept Catholicism. These clerics have abandoned Catholicism. They're schismatics and ought to be formally excommunicated.

 

[Kooky]

Immoral according to the prevailing opinion of the current moment. Tomorrow may disagree with you.

Just as slavery, female priesthood, or celibacy, all of which were issues where the church's stances have changed over time.

In any case you either believe man is bound to observe the moral law as revealed by God and the natural law or you don't actually accept Catholicism. These clerics have abandoned Catholicism. They're schismatics and ought to be formally excommunicated.

There is no "natural law" that says homosexuality is bad.
Please do not confuse personal opinions and common prejudice with nature.

 

[pearl]

There is no "natural law" that says homosexuality is bad.

The Church would first have to amend its teaching on the purpose of marriage, pro-creation, pleasure is secondary.

 

[Glaurung]

Just as slavery, female priesthood, or celibacy, all of which were issues where the church's stances have changed over time.

1. Clerical celibacy has never been a doctrine of Catholic faith.
   
2. The Church has never ordained women to holy orders.
   
3. The Church's historical relationship with slavery is complicated.

There is no "natural law" that says homosexuality is bad.

According to Church teaching, there is. Specifically, the final cause of the sexual faculty. The Christian rejects the idea that nature is blind and without purpose.

Please do not confuse personal opinions and common prejudice with nature.

Nature in this context means end or purpose. Whether or not you accept teleology is immaterial. The Church teaches final causality.

 

[Glaurung]

The Church would first have to amend its teaching on the purpose of marriage, pro-creation, pleasure is secondary.

It would be the final nail to end my Christian faith. If the Magisterium defects on this then Catholicism is a sham. It cannot be that sins that damned a person to Hell can now suddenly be done in good conscience. It cannot be that revelation is now suddenly so demanding that not even the successors of the Apostles have the conviction to teach it.

 

[Jedster]

@danieldemol
I always thought that Catholics believe the Pope to be God's on Earth & infallible.
If that is so, then why do people even dare to disagree with him about anything?

 

[Sirona]

@danieldemol
I always thought that Catholics believe the Pope to be God's on Earth & infallible.
If that is so, then why do people even dare to disagree with him about anything?

The majority of Germany's Christians are registered as either Catholic (22.6 million) or Protestant (20.7 million). (6 facts about Catholic and Protestant influence in Germany | DW | 01.04.2021). I suppose Catholics are looking over the fence and envying Protestants, who are usually much more democratic and less hierarchy-oriented, and who do have female pastors. Wikipedia says that since 2017, a blessing of homosexual couples is possible in 19 out of 20 sub-units (Landeskirchen) of the Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland.

Here's some old stuff I wrote about homosexuality in Catholic clergy: Books about homosexuals in religious orders and seminaries

 

[Estro Felino]

These clerics have abandoned Catholicism. They're schismatics and ought to be formally excommunicated.

I do think they have done nothing wrong.
But even if they did....it is nothing compared to what Bergoglio did with Pachamama and many other things...

 

[epronovost]

@danieldemol
I always thought that Catholics believe the Pope to be God's on Earth & infallible.
If that is so, then why do people even dare to disagree with him about anything?

The doctrine of papal infallibility has been rejected in the mid 1900's.

 

[Jedster]

The doctrine of papal infallibility has been rejected in the mid 1900's.

Thanks, I had no idea.

 

[Glaurung]

I always thought that Catholics believe the Pope to be God's on Earth & infallible.

No. Catholics believe the pope to be the successor of Saint Peter as vicar of Christ. The pope is infallible only when formally defining a doctrine. The Church does not teach that the man holding the office is infallible in everything he says and does.

I do think they have done nothing wrong.

They are doing wrong.

First, they are acting in disobedience.
Second, no one has the power to change the moral law.

And the law is not ambiguous here. We are warned rather bluntly by Saint Paul that those who die in sexual sin will be denied the beatific vision. Do not be deceived he says. And we are under a deception if we think God is going to long overlook his Church surrendering to the sinful opinions of the world.

 

[pearl]

It would be the final nail to end my Christian faith. If the Magisterium defects on this then Catholicism is a sham. It cannot be that sins that damned a person to Hell can now suddenly be done in good conscience. It cannot be that revelation is now suddenly so demanding that not even the successors of the Apostles have the conviction to teach it.

Think about that statement, you're Christian faith is in God as he comes to in/through Christ.

The Church, as 'the people of God' is greater than the hierarchy. And we were Church prior to the nineteenth century without a declared papal infallibility. Cardinal Newman wrote "What have we done to be treated as the faithful never were treated before? When has a definition de fide been a luxury of devotion and not a stern painful necessity? Why should an aggressive and insolent faction be allowed to 'make the heart of the just sad, when the Lord hath not made sorrowful'. He was referring to the 'ultramontanes' who he believed were pushing infallibility dogma for personal and political reasons.
"We do not move at railroad pace in theological matters even in the nineteenth century. We must be patient and that for two reasons, first in order to get at the truth, and next in order to carry others with us. The Church moves as a whole, it is not a mere philosophy, it is a communion."

For those of us who do not like change we tend to object on the false grounds that 'its always been that way' when in actually it hasn't always been that way in the history of the one Church.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The doctrine of papal infallibility has been rejected in the mid 1900's.

By whom? Please provide details...that is not at all my understanding.

 

[Kooky]

The Church would first have to amend its teaching on the purpose of marriage, pro-creation, pleasure is secondary.

And yet, strangely, the church seemingly has no problem with the marriage of heterosexual couples who cannot produce offspring of their own, or with heterosexual couples using contraception.

It's almost as if these issues can be trivially glossed over when they are no longer mainstream bigotry's obsession du jour.

 

[Kooky]

1. Clerical celibacy has never been a doctrine of Catholic faith.
   
2. The Church has never ordained women to holy orders.
   
3. The Church's historical relationship with slavery is complicated.

1. And yet, clerical celibacy has been part of Catholic tradition for centuries, and the church steadfastly continutes to refuse to ordain married men as bishops.
2. The church has certainly ordained women in the early days of Christianity, and many branches of Catholicism such as the Old Catholic church have ordained women.
3. i.e. their stance on it has changed with the times, as it became increasingly untenable in a modern world to embrace the institution of slavery as good and just, like it did at the height of the Transatlantic slave trade.

The idea that the Catholic Church never changes its mind about anything is