Draw Muhammad day

[George-ananda]

Do you think Islam is a country?

Um, it isn't.

OMG...... I think anyone smart enough to get out of bed knows Islam is not a country.......I am insulted but forgiving.......

They (the moderate Muslims and mullahs you mentioned in the post I responded to) aren't a government. Islam doesn't have a "citizenry".

Each of the many countries with an overwhelmingly Muslim population does have a government and citizenry. The government of these countries along with the mullahs and moderate citizenry have to come together to not tolerate violent extremists. Each country would have to work internally themselves and there should also be co-operation between like minded countries.

There's no international Islamic equivalent of the American FBI that has the means, the authority, or the responsibility to keep the rest of the Islamic world in line.

Each country does have some form of military and police presence that maintains law and order.

You're calling for a "determined government effort" from an imaginary government with the support of an imaginary citizenry with the imaginary authority to regulate the behavior of all Muslims everywhere.

Err....... No. See above replies.

 

[A Troubled Man]

What's hilarious about this is the fact folks are focusing on drawing a picture of Mohammad, the repercussions of alleged extremists responding with violence and the ensuing arguments of how moderate the other Muslims are.

The picture of Mohammad is merely a symbol of hypocrisy from those who demand free speech and freedom of religion but don't want others to share in those rights.

It's perfectly fine and acceptable for the religious to believe whatever they want and evangelize their beliefs whenever and wherever they want, regardless of who it offends. It's their duty assigned by their gods to do so.

But, the moment the religious are offended, the persecution cards are immediately dealt, played and laid out on the table. Terms like 'Islamophobia' are tossed around, shrieks of persecution and evil sinners are bandied about and its off to the UN demanding they pass resolution banning Islamophobic behavior.

It's got nothing to do with drawing pictures, folks.

 

[A Troubled Man]

Don't like their rules? Don't live there. I don't like China's laws either, so I choose to not live there.

Oh my, that's quite the can of worms you're opening there.

If Muslims emigrated to the US, for example, and Americans said that to them, what do you think the consequences would be?

How about demanding Sharia Law be implemented in courts, for one?

 

[Quagmire]

OMG...... I think anyone smart enough to get out of bed knows Islam is not a country.......I am insulted but forgiving.......

And yet apparently every single Muslim on the planet is culpable for what every other Muslim on the planet does. How does that work?

Each of the many countries with an overwhelmingly Muslim population does have a government and citizenry.

Oh I see, now we're talking exclusively about incidents that happen in countries with predominantly Islamic populations. Up til now we were talking about the world.

The government of these countries along with the mullahs and moderate citizenry have to come together to not tolerate violent extremists.

So when you said:

Where are the moderate Muslims and mullahs that should be cracking down on this violent element; they seemed to be more concerned with condemning the West for producing and allowing these drawings.

...you were talking exclusively about the moderate Muslims and mullahs living in predominantly Islamic countries? Sorry, you didn't make that clear.

Each country would have to work internally themselves and there should also be co-operation between like minded countries.

"Like minded countries"? Now i'm lost: which countries specifically are you referring to?

 

[Nooj]

Oh my, that's quite the can of worms you're opening there.

If Muslims emigrated to the US, for example, and Americans said that to them, what do you think the consequences would be?

It's immigrated. Emigrated is moving out.

How about demanding Sharia Law be implemented in courts, for one?

The law changes. One of the ways it changes is if people democratically vote for it. If many Muslims and many non-Muslims demand Islamic law be incorporated into the American legal system via voting, they'd be doing so in a perfectly American way.

In any case, many aspects of Islamic law are compatible with American laws. Since Muslims live under the aegis of Islamic law, Islamic law is being implemented everyday. Even in America. It's only when what people do conflicts with the laws of the nation that problems arise.

 

[Badran]

Having a "Draw Muhammad day" is having a day to enforce the idea that you can, and are, doing something you're already entitled to do, to send a message to a small group of violent people who'd like to oppress your right in doing so, and to make them understand that threat and use of violence will not succeed in suppressing people's ability to express themselves.

That is fine and a noble cause, had it not been for the following. That its also a day where you are, whether you like it or not, and whether Muslims like it or not, sending a message to all Muslims. On one part due to its premise, that its a day devoted to doing something that bothers most Muslims (even if its not specifically the aim), and on another part due its nature; that it attracts a lot of people who abuse the idea, and instead of just drawing Muhammad as an act of expressing their support for freedom of speech, they use it to express their bigotry, through disrespectful and hateful images.

Considering this, the crowd you're aiming at, compared to the crowd you're actually going to hit, and the inescapable nature of what you're aiming (that it'll contain a lot of hate), a better strategy might be a better idea, to put it lightly. That is of course assuming that reducing hate, cultural clashes and/or unnecessary feelings of animosity between people, rather than contributing to it, is something important to you.

This is not to say that anybody supporting of the idea doesn't care about others, only to say that i think that in this case, people who support the day are caught up in one thing, and forgetting about something else that is also very important.

 

[Father Heathen]

Drawing a picture of Muhammad just to exercise free speech -- and for no other purpose -- strikes me as just as meaningful (or meaningless) as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire. If you draw a picture of Muhammad, or yell fire in a crowded theater, you had best have something greater in mind than the mere exercise of free speech. It is true that free speech is the foundation of other liberties. But it is also true that those liberties do not vitally depend on your ability to yell fire in a crowded theater or to draw a picture of Muhammad.

While you could argue that drawing muhammad is immature and mean spirited, but I don't think you can compare it to yelling "fire" in a theater when there is no fire, sense it's a public disturbance and endangers others with a false emergency. Drawing a cartoon is benign and harmless. The point about drawing Muhammad isn't just to insult simply for the sake of doing so, but rather to defy demands that a freedom be stripped away. It's important not to compromise our rights and liberty. If people didn't insist they not be allowed to do so, they would have no reason to do it. If someone demanded that a woman stop dressing in a way they considered immodest and provocative because they found it offensive, would her refusal to do so be the same as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire?

 

[beenie]

Good God, Badran, do you always have to be so smart?
Well thought out and well said.

Just another example of "just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD".

 

[beenie]

You could argue that drawing muhammad is immature and mean spirited, but I don't think the two are comparable. Yelling "fire" is a public disturbance and endangers others with a false emergency. Drawing a cartoon is benign and harmless. The point about drawing Muhammad isn't just to insult simply for the sake of doing so, but rather to defy demands that a freedom be stripped away. If people didn't insist they not be allowed to do so, they would have no reason to do it. If someone demanded that a woman stop dressing in a way they considered immodest and provocative because they found it offensive, would her refusal to do so be the same as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire?

Ideally this is true also, but as long as people over-react, and they always will, the wheels will just keep spinning.

 

[Badran]

If someone demanded that a woman stop dressing in a way they considered immodest and provocative because they found it offensive, would her refusal to do so be the same as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire?

No, but i don't think thats a fair analogy.

Her reaction to the unreasonable 'demand' in this case is not the same as that of "Draw Muhammad day". She simply refused changing her life style, which is of course her own business.

She didn't however show off her clothes to everybody who also thinks she should dress more modestly (and haven't actually 'demanded' that she does).

 

[Badran]

Good God, Badran, do you always have to be so smart?
Well thought out and well said.

Just another example of "just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD".

Good God ssainhu, i sure have missed you.

You make me feel so special.

 

[Me Myself]

Muhammad is dead. As any alive celebrity today he can be mocked and ridiculed.

I think it´s fair.

 

[Me Myself]

She didn't however show off her clothes to everybody who also thinks she should dress more modestly (and haven't actually 'demanded' that she does).

So she can dress however she wants as long as she is alone in a dark room or ask permission to anyone who might see her?

 

[839311]

That is fine and a noble cause, had it not been for the following. That its also a day where you are, whether you like it or not, and whether Muslims like it or not, sending a message to all Muslims.

The message is being sent to the world, not just muslims.

On one part due to its premise, that its a day devoted to doing something that bothers most Muslims (even if its not specifically the aim), and on another part due its nature;

Respect for religious figures vs. freedom of speech. Phew. Yep, that will get people on either side riled up.

that it attracts a lot of people who abuse the idea, and instead of just drawing Muhammad as an act of expressing their support for freedom of speech, they use it to express their bigotry, through disrespectful and hateful images.

Lots of stupid people out there, no doubt about that.

a better strategy might be a better idea.

Like what? I think that there could definetly be some better approaches, but Im also watching hockey right now and don't wanna think about it much. The Phoenix LA series is getting ugly.

That is of course assuming that reducing hate, cultural clashes and/or unnecessary feelings of animosity between people, rather than contributing to it, is something important to you.

Haha. I think it would be a good idea not to give people too much credit here, especially people in the west. Ive found westerners will often say what they think is right, or just what they think lol, whether or not someones feelings may be hurt.

This is not to say that anybody supporting of the idea doesn't care about others, only to say that i think that in this case, people who support the day are caught up in one thing, and forgetting about something else that is also very important.

I think it depends on who people are. People in the west are desensitized to mocking religious figures, so its a bit odd to see other cultures riot to the point that many muslims are rioting about the muhammad cartoons. It appears as a fanatically excessive response.

Once the violence and murders kick in, the stakes begin to rise.

 

[Father Heathen]

Her reaction to the unreasonable 'demand' in this case is not the same as that of "Draw Muhammad day". She simply refused changing her life style, which is of course her own business.

When someone says "my feelings supersede your rights", what is your natural impulse?

She didn't however show off he clothes to everybody who also thinks she should dress more modestly (and haven't actually 'demanded' that she does).

So are they actually going out of their way to show these silly cartoons to every muslim they meet, running down the streets waving the illustrations above their heads? I bet people have to actively search to even see those cartoons.

 

[Quagmire]

The message is being sent to the world, not just muslims.

And what message is that?

Respect for religious figures vs. freedom of speech.

Strawman: nobodies taking about taking away anybodies legal right to draw a picture of Mohammad. The people making threats don't dictate the laws. Drawing a picture of Muhammad isn't making a stand for freedom of speech because freedom of speech isn't in jeopardy.

It isn't about whether or not you have the right to do it, it's about whether or not doing it is right.

Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Haha. I think it would be a good idea not to give people too much credit here,

That's an understatement.

especially people in the west. Ive found westerners will often say what they think is right,

All to often without thinking.

or just what they think lol, whether or not someones feelings may be hurt.

Even if it's unnecessary.

I think it depends on who people are. People in the west are desensitized to mocking religious figures,

People in the West are desensitized period. For the most part, they can't understand why when someone cares about something that they don't care about themselves. And for the most part, the idea of making an attempt to understand values that they don't hold themselves is considered pandering by a lot of people. "Everybody should be just like us. And if they're not? Well it's their own look-out. Serves them right for not being us".

so its a bit odd to see other cultures riot to the point that many muslims are rioting about the muhammad cartoons. It appears as a fanatically excessive response.

Once the violence and murders kick in, the stakes begin to rise.

And rationality goes out the window.

 

[Cordoba]

Another song about Prophet Muhammad by Maher Zain

The lyrics are in Arabic, but the video was filmed in the US:

[youtube]Vqfy4ScRXFQ[/youtube]
Maher Zain - Ya Nabi (Arabic Version) |

 

[Badran]

So she can dress however she wants as long as she is alone in a dark room or ask permission to anyone who might see her?

How can you think that of me?

What i meant was more like she specifically going up 'in their faces' to show it off. Not just wearing it.

 

[Badran]

The message is being sent to the world, not just muslims.

I can't say that this is the impression i got in anyway. Neither by its name, what its about, whats done by it or by what its advocates usually say. That said, if this is indeed the case, it doesn't change the following though; that Muslims in general, rather than anybody else, will be the ones getting hurt by it. And that they're the ones this'll at least seem like a message to be sent towards, given the attributes i mentioned about it.

Respect for religious figures vs. freedom of speech. Phew. Yep, that will get people on either side riled up.

Note that i wasn't saying merely the idea of drawing Muhammad, but specifically having a day devoted to such.

Like what? I think that there could definetly be some better approaches, but Im also watching hockey right now and don't wanna think about it much. The Phoenix LA series is getting ugly.

lol

I'm not too creative myself, but i'm thinking things along the lines of rallies for example, ones that are calling or supporting freedom of speech itself, or the freedom to express one's self through drawing what they want and feel is necessary to convey their point, which is a form of expression of course. Rather than naming it "Draw Muhammad day".

Haha. I think it would be a good idea not to give people too much credit here, especially people in the west. Ive found westerners will often say what they think is right, or just what they think lol, whether or not someones feelings may be hurt.

I think it depends on who people are. People in the west are desensitized to mocking religious figures, so its a bit odd to see other cultures riot to the point that many muslims are rioting about the muhammad cartoons. It appears as a fanatically excessive response.

Once the violence and murders kick in, the stakes begin to rise.

I agree with you here, i think this is a very valid point in explaining why this happened the way it did. But i also think it highlights the part of the problem in this regard; why and where the reaction went off (at least in my view).

I think more consideration and a more thoughtful approach in such issues is helpful.

 

[Badran]

When someone says "my feelings supersede your rights", what is your natural impulse?

While it depends on how and why its said, i'll assume you mean it in a certain way to address your point. Personally i get angered by such sentiments and of course do fight for enforcing that i wholeheartedly disagree with it, and that i can and will do what i want whether they like it or not. Like i said i do understand the sentiment, i don't think people have made any misjudgments in how they were feeling towards such violent actions trying to step over their rights and so forth.

Only in how they decided to go about it, by including others who did not actually share in expressing that sentiment.

So are they actually going out of their way to show these silly cartoons to every muslim they meet, running down the streets waving the illustrations above their heads? I bet people have to actively search to even see those cartoons.

To be honest, personally i haven't seen any until i looked for them to know what i'm talking about.

I think its fair to assume though that it would've been different had i been a user of facebook.