Dress Codes and Women's Reproductive Freedom

[Sunstone]

I've long maintained that one of the best ways to restrict or limit a woman's reproductive choices is to force her to dress "modestly" or in an unattractive manner.

"Reproductive choice", simply defined, is being able to pick and choose who to mate with.

All else being equal, a woman who can attract more men to her has greater reproductive choice than a woman who can attract fewer men to her. Put differently, women tend to increase their reproductive options by making themselves more attractive to men -- or to the sort of men they wish to attract. One of the ways they sometimes do this is to make themselves physically attractive. Consequently, forcing a woman to dress in an unattractive way is effectively messing with her freedom to choose who she wants to mate with.

Anyone interested in discussing this?

 

[SomeRandom]

Doesn't this rely on cultural norms of what is attractive?
And is largely subjective anyway?
I mean okay a man from a culture that for lack of a better term "celebrates" modesty, wouldn't that particular man actively look for a female who is dressed modestly? Because that man comes from a world view that views modest dress as something desirable?


Don't get me wrong, if anyone tried to make me wear something I don't want to, I'd tell them where they could shove it.
But at the same time, coming from a culture that does largely pressure the whole "dress modestly" thing, I've never felt pressure to be confined in my reproductive choices.
Perhaps the culture I come from is simply not that extreme?

 

[Altfish]

Would it help if males also dressed modestly.

The species may then die out.

 

[Thanda]

I've long maintained that one of the best ways to restrict or limit a woman's reproductive choices is to force her to dress "modestly" or in an unattractive manner.

"Reproductive choice", simply defined, is being able to pick and choose who to mate with.

All else being equal, a woman who can attract more men to her has greater reproductive choice than a woman who can attract fewer men to her. Put differently, women tend to increase their reproductive options by making themselves more attractive to men -- or to the sort of men they wish to attract. One of the ways they sometimes do this is to make themselves physically attractive. Consequently, forcing a woman to dress in an unattractive way is effectively messing with her freedom to choose who she wants to mate with.

Anyone interested in discussing this?

We as a society have long decided that reproduction is not the only goal - we also have to actually raise those children into responsible, mature and contributing members of society. So in those cultures where the concept of modesty exists those who dress immodestly are often considered to lack the attributes that will lead to successfully raising children. They are thus less likely to attract men who would want to have and raise children with them - indeed all they are guaranteed is that some men will want to have sex with them.

And so as another poster has noted it is not automatic that the scantily clad woman has more reproductive choices than the woman dressing more - since in attracting one kind of man she may well be alienating herself from another. And then of course there also comes the question of the quality of the choices available.

 

[dawny0826]

I've long maintained that one of the best ways to restrict or limit a woman's reproductive choices is to force her to dress "modestly" or in an unattractive manner.

"Reproductive choice", simply defined, is being able to pick and choose who to mate with.

All else being equal, a woman who can attract more men to her has greater reproductive choice than a woman who can attract fewer men to her. Put differently, women tend to increase their reproductive options by making themselves more attractive to men -- or to the sort of men they wish to attract. One of the ways they sometimes do this is to make themselves physically attractive. Consequently, forcing a woman to dress in an unattractive way is effectively messing with her freedom to choose who she wants to mate with.

Anyone interested in discussing this?

Since when do self respecting women give a flying fart as to whether or not their attire is pleasing to men?

And within what situational context are we discussing dress code?

 

[Thanda]

Since when do self respecting women give a flying fart as to whether or not their attire is pleasing to men?

And within what situational context are we discussing dress code?

Since forever. Unless you believe it is a sign of a lack of self-respect for woman to desire men and to desire to please them - if so I would be interested in your reasoning.

 

[Father Heathen]

I've long maintained that one of the best ways to restrict or limit a woman's reproductive choices is to force her to dress "modestly" or in an unattractive manner.

"Reproductive choice", simply defined, is being able to pick and choose who to mate with.

All else being equal, a woman who can attract more men to her has greater reproductive choice than a woman who can attract fewer men to her. Put differently, women tend to increase their reproductive options by making themselves more attractive to men -- or to the sort of men they wish to attract. One of the ways they sometimes do this is to make themselves physically attractive. Consequently, forcing a woman to dress in an unattractive way is effectively messing with her freedom to choose who she wants to mate with.

Anyone interested in discussing this?

Eh? So you're saying that women who dress modestly have a harder time developing relationships and eventually forming families? Also, why would modesty necessarily be considered unattractive?

 

[Father Heathen]

Since forever. Unless you believe it is a sign of a lack of self-respect for woman to desire men and to desire to please them - if so I would be interested in your reasoning.

That's not what she is saying at all. Besides, why would desiring or attracting others require one to dress provocatively? A rather shallow and superficial basis for any sort of relationship, much less a potential family.

 

[dawny0826]

Since forever. Unless you believe it is a sign of a lack of self-respect for woman to desire men and to desire to please them - if so I would be interested in your reasoning.

I sure as hell don't dress to impress Father Heathen and never have. He may find me attractive, but, I've never purposefully done anything to my body or face for the purpose of pleasing him.

I dress to please myself. We attracted each other with our personalities, world views and like interests. Sexual attraction was an added bonus.

 

[Thanda]

That's not what she is saying at all. Besides, why would desiring or attracting others require one to dress provocatively? A rather shallow and superficial basis for any sort of relationship, much less a potential family.

Since you know well what she is trying to say can you then explain it to me.

As to your question I am not sure why you are asking me that question instead of the OP.

 

[Thanda]

I sure as hell don't dress to impress Father Heathen and never have. He may find me attractive, but, I've never purposefully done anything to my body or face for the purpose of pleasing him.

I dress to please myself. We attracted each other with our personalities, world views and like interests. Sexual attraction was an added bonus.

You've failed to answer my question - you asked when a self-respecting woman has ever cared what men think of what they wear. I said they always have and asked what you think would prevent a self-respecting woman from doing so. My question still stands.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Would it help if males also dressed modestly.

The species may then die out.

And this would be a bad thing, why?

 

[SomeRandom]

I sure as hell don't dress to impress Father Heathen and never have. He may find me attractive, but, I've never purposefully done anything to my body or face for the purpose of pleasing him.

I dress to please myself. We attracted each other with our personalities, world views and like interests. Sexual attraction was an added bonus.

To be fair, dressing to please a man is something many young ladies do. If for the only reason that we want to attract a mate. It's basic biology. Come on, you've never tried to impress a first date in your life?
I dress in what feels comfortable but my family have often humorously and unfortunately accurately noted that if I am more attentive in my appearance than normal then I am more than likely trying to impress a hot date I have for the night. Yeah, we ladies dress for our own self esteem. But that doesn't exclude the occasional "prettying up" for a date night either.

You've never dabbed on a bit of perfume or added a little bit of bling in order to go out on the town with the girls and received some very welcome male attention before?
I think I've just outgrown that phase of life and still see it in my future lol
Like I'm a total tomboy through and through and even I've dressed to impress on a few occasions. Does that mean I lack self esteem? Why?

 

[Father Heathen]

Since you know well what she is trying to say can you then explain it to me.

It was so strait forward that I don't know how to simplify it any further.

 

[Jabar]

I've long maintained that one of the best ways to restrict or limit a woman's reproductive choices is to force her to dress "modestly" or in an unattractive manner.

"Reproductive choice", simply defined, is being able to pick and choose who to mate with.

All else being equal, a woman who can attract more men to her has greater reproductive choice than a woman who can attract fewer men to her. Put differently, women tend to increase their reproductive options by making themselves more attractive to men -- or to the sort of men they wish to attract. One of the ways they sometimes do this is to make themselves physically attractive. Consequently, forcing a woman to dress in an unattractive way is effectively messing with her freedom to choose who she wants to mate with.

Anyone interested in discussing this?

Well, from an Islamic perspective, i believe Hijab is not all that unattractive to be totally honest.

I will agree upon the statement that a woman are more likely to attract more men and in turn have greater reproductive choice without dressing modestly.

But they also have a higher chance of getting raped, abused, and sexually harassed.

I would agree that forcing a women with physical power is not appropriate, however dressing with more modesty is better.

I do not have a big problem with ladies that do not wear Hijab but then again do not expose their parts.

I would disagree that it would mess with freedom to choose who she wants to mate with, unless the person she is mating with is a total murderer, or rapist.

However, it does affect divergent religions, and belief systems of the relationship.

I believe Women can show all their beauty to their husbands and when mating can show her beauty, but it is a more safer option to not expose with other men.

 

[dawny0826]

You've failed to answer my question - you asked when a self-respecting woman has ever cared what men think of what they wear. I said they always have and asked what you think would prevent a self-respecting woman from doing so. My question still stands.

And you failed to see my point, which equally stands.

I believe wholly that a woman who dresses for the purpose of pleasing or attracting another human being AHEAD OF HERSELF and because she feels she has to, not because she legitimately wants to, is acting in a self-disrespecting manner.

Completely different if doing so is meaningful to her and is self-gratifying.

A woman that wears something because men would find it appealing, not because it's pleasing to her is selling out to fuel existing patriarchal bull.

 

[dawny0826]

To be fair, dressing to please a man is something many young ladies do. If for the only reason that we want to attract a mate. It's basic biology. Come on, you've never tried to impress a first date in your life?
I dress in what feels comfortable but my family have often humorously and unfortunately accurately noted that if I am more attentive in my appearance than normal then I am more than likely trying to impress a hot date I have for the night. Yeah, we ladies dress for our own self esteem. But that doesn't exclude the occasional "prettying up" for a date night either.

You've never dabbed on a bit of perfume or added a little bit of bling in order to go out on the town with the girls and received some very welcome male attention before?
I think I've just outgrown that phase of life and still see it in my future lol
Like I'm a total tomboy through and through and even I've dressed to impress on a few occasions. Does that mean I lack self esteem? Why?

Just because many women do it, doesn't mean that I think it's something that a woman should have to do. For what it's worth, I've never dated or slept with anyone who made me feel like I had to dress a certain way to be attractive or sexy. Because, first and foremost, what's sexy and attractive about me is my personality. Everything else is a unique attribute that enhances what I already consider beautiful and sexy.

I've never wanted a piece of **** man who would see me as a piece of *** before he'd see me as a capable, passionate and intelligent woman.

Therefore, dressing a certain way has never been an issue for me within the parameters of attracting people.

I'm a makeup artist. I love my perfume. But, I don't partake for other people. I do it because I live for the art and appreciate its benefit FOR ME.

I can't speak as to your self esteem. My opinion though, is that if you dress solely to impress because you felt that you couldn't impress without looking a certain way - you were either feeding a lack of confidence or hanging around people that weren't deserving of your attention. Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

 

[SomeRandom]

Just because many women do it, doesn't mean that I think it's something that a woman should have to do. For what it's worth, I've never dated or slept with anyone who made me feel like I had to dress a certain way to be attractive or sexy. Because, first and foremost, what's sexy and attractive about me is my personality. Everything else is a unique attribute that enhances what I already consider beautiful and sexy.

I've never wanted a piece of **** man who would see me as a piece of *** before he'd see me as a capable, passionate and intelligent woman.

Therefore, dressing a certain way has never been an issue for me within the parameters of attracting people.

I'm a makeup artist. I love my perfume. But, I don't partake for other people. I do it because I live for the art and appreciate its benefit FOR ME.

I can't speak as to your self esteem. My opinion though, is that if you dress solely to impress because you felt that you couldn't impress without looking a certain way - you were either feeding a lack of confidence or hanging around people that weren't deserving of your attention. Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

I never said solely. Are these really mutually exclusive concepts? Can a girl not want to look pretty for her own self worth and to impress her crush?
Yeah personality is the most important thing in a relationship. But humans are very much a "judge by the cover" type of species. Is it so bad that some women dress to attract a mate and then keep the ones who they deem is most compatible personality wise?

 

[dawny0826]

I never said solely. Are these really mutually exclusive concepts? Can a girl not want to look pretty for her own self worth and to impress her crush?
Yeah personality is the most important thing in a relationship. But humans are very much a "judge by the cover" type of species. Is it so bad that some women dress to attract a mate and then keep the ones who they deem is most compatible personality wise?

Of course she can. I believe I made that distinction.

I think that it's ridiculous personally, that women feel that that they have to dress in any way to attract a mate. Whether or not this is "so bad" is fully contingent upon individual motivation.

You know now my thoughts on the subject.

 

[SomeRandom]

Of course she can. I believe I made that distinction.

I think that it's ridiculous personally, that women feel that that they have to dress in any way to attract a mate. Whether or not this is "so bad" is fully contingent upon individual motivation.

You know now my thoughts on the subject.

Fair enough.

Do you think this "feeling" that one should attract a mate through dress is nature or nurture?