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Dress Codes and Women's Reproductive Freedom

Thanda

Well-Known Member
And you failed to see my point, which equally stands.

I believe wholly that a woman who dresses for the purpose of pleasing or attracting another human being AHEAD OF HERSELF and because she feels she has to, not because she legitimately wants to, is acting in a self-disrespecting manner.

Completely different if doing so is meaningful to her and is self-gratifying.

A woman that wears something because men would find it ppealing, not because it's pleasing to her is sell out to fuel existing patriarchal bull.

Let me start by noting that you have back-tracked. Your original post asked why a self respecting woman would give "a flying fart" whether men found their attire pleasing. You have now raised a strawman by talking about a woman who dresses in a certain way because she feels she has to when the OP was about allowing (that is, not forcing or pressuring) a woman to dress in a way she felt would give her the widest range of men to mate with.

Now that you have toned down your argument to be about the unrelated subject of woman who are forced or pressured into wearing clothes they don't like but which they feel will attract men then I have less of an issue with position. I say I have less of an issue but I do not mean I have no issue. I think as a society we often use peer pressure to produce the outcomes we desire. Is it a bad thing a 40 year-old man doesn't go for a 17 year-old girl because of the negative pressure he feels from society? Likewise the societal pressure to attract and keep good mates is one that has ensured human existence for thousands of years - it would be folly to call all those who were party to it self-disrespecting men or women.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Probably a mix of both. For me, such a notion would be nurtured, as I don't possess such natural inclination.

I can agree with you there.
I'm a little bit of the opposite. I was never really discouraged to wear what I wanted, but I did have more cultural pressures to be a certain way as a female. A hell of a lot more pressure than I personally see (and experienced) from the Western paradigm. But rebelled in a way and made sure I stayed me and proud of it. Perhaps even as a slight coping mechanism from the unappealing life I envisioned for myself if I listened.
Oddly my family have only supported this. So.......I don't know. A little weird. Hard to explain I guess?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I've long maintained that one of the best ways to restrict or limit a woman's reproductive choices is to force her to dress "modestly" or in an unattractive manner.

"Reproductive choice", simply defined, is being able to pick and choose who to mate with.

All else being equal, a woman who can attract more men to her has greater reproductive choice than a woman who can attract fewer men to her. Put differently, women tend to increase their reproductive options by making themselves more attractive to men -- or to the sort of men they wish to attract. One of the ways they sometimes do this is to make themselves physically attractive. Consequently, forcing a woman to dress in an unattractive way is effectively messing with her freedom to choose who she wants to mate with.

Anyone interested in discussing this?

Much of this is based on culturally determined standards of beauty that are wholly arbitrary and malleable to what the more aristocratic women have been toying with in their own aesthetics. Fat, thin, tall, petite, blonde, brunette, fair skin, bronzed skin, and including but not exclusively what skin/hair is revealed and what is covered or veiled.

One of the most wonderful, liberating, and eye-opening experiences has been as a woman discovering mating choices increasing over time as an aging and increasingly infertile human being. So little to do with fixed forms of physical attraction and so much to do with the art of conversation. Physical attraction occurs with eye contact and pupil dilation, flushed cheeks, body angling, posture/poise, and limbic stability/fluidity.

Dress codes that are explicitly or implicitly enforced most certainly not only restrict women's choices, but men's choices in what to consider beautiful too (by heterosexual normative standards, btw). It takes enough people to spit on these arbitrary standards to show how much better and more fun and more authentic mating and pair bonding is through conversation and movements rather than pick up lines and fixed forms. Learn to "dance" in your interactions, in other words.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
A woman shouldn't feel pressured or required to dress a certain way, be it provocative or modest. A woman should be able to dress however she wants, for whatever reason. What's important is that she feels comfortable and confident doing so. The point is that being beautiful and attractive doesn't require dressing provocatively, nor is dressing provocatively necessary to "find a mate". Anyone who's been in an actual relationship - at least a healthy, meaningful one - would understand this.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Let me start by noting that you have back-tracked. Your original post asked why a self respecting woman would give "a flying fart" whether men found their attire pleasing. You have now raised a strawman by talking about a woman who dresses in a certain way because she feels she has to when the OP was about allowing (that is, not forcing or pressuring) a woman to dress in a way she felt would give her the widest range of men to mate with.

Now that you have toned down your argument to be about the unrelated subject of woman who are forced or pressured into wearing clothes they don't like but which they feel will attract men then I have less of an issue with position. I say I have less of an issue but I do not mean I have no issue. I think as a society we often use peer pressure to produce the outcomes we desire. Is it a bad thing a 40 year-old man doesn't go for a 17 year-old girl because of the negative pressure he feels from society? Likewise the societal pressure to attract and keep good mates is one that has ensured human existence for thousands of years - it would be folly to call all those who were party to it self-disrespecting men or women.

What type of self respect do I have, if I define "good" mate as one that I can only attract and keep because I succumb to societal pressure and standards of beauty?

Dress code should be a non issue when discussing my reproductive freedoms and choice. Naturally, I reject the notion that a woman should be forced to dress a certain way.

There's another important consideration. I'm perfectly capable of reproduction without a mate. I require seed, not a partner.

This boils down to the perpetuation of patriarchal standards and the inaccurate notion that a woman needs a man to reproduce, to be fulfilled or to project as having worth.

I don't find it self-respecting when one fuels the concept that to be worthy of mating, one must look a particular way - quite likely in a way that conforms to a type of appeal prescribed by men.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Let me start by noting that you have back-tracked. Your original post asked why a self respecting woman would give "a flying fart" whether men found their attire pleasing. You have now raised a strawman by talking about a woman who dresses in a certain way because she feels she has to when the OP was about allowing (that is, not forcing or pressuring) a woman to dress in a way she felt would give her the widest range of men to mate with.
It's that a strong and self-confident woman doesn't need to dress to impress she men. Sure, she may want to and enjoy the attention, but it certainly isn't to find a potential mate because relying on attire is only going to waste a ton of time with inevitably rejecting more than what would be considered even remotely worth a date, and that is because strong and self-confident men tend to look for women who are more than just their looks. So it does go back to "self respecting women not giving a flying fart" about if men approve of their attire or not.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
I've long maintained that one of the best ways to restrict or limit a woman's reproductive choices is to force her to dress "modestly" or in an unattractive manner.

"Reproductive choice", simply defined, is being able to pick and choose who to mate with.

All else being equal, a woman who can attract more men to her has greater reproductive choice than a woman who can attract fewer men to her. Put differently, women tend to increase their reproductive options by making themselves more attractive to men -- or to the sort of men they wish to attract. One of the ways they sometimes do this is to make themselves physically attractive. Consequently, forcing a woman to dress in an unattractive way is effectively messing with her freedom to choose who she wants to mate with.

Anyone interested in discussing this?
For your opinion should be their a dresscode for women in public area ?
How about dresscode which force woman to be with clothes close to nudity as condition of work ?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Much of this is based on culturally determined standards of beauty that are wholly arbitrary and malleable to what the more aristocratic women have been toying with in their own aesthetics. Fat, thin, tall, petite, blonde, brunette, fair skin, bronzed skin, and including but not exclusively what skin/hair is revealed and what is covered or veiled.

One of the most wonderful, liberating, and eye-opening experiences has been as a woman discovering mating choices increasing over time as an aging and increasingly infertile human being. So little to do with fixed forms of physical attraction and so much to do with the art of conversation. Physical attraction occurs with eye contact and pupil dilation, flushed cheeks, body angling, posture/poise, and limbic stability/fluidity.

Dress codes that are explicitly or implicitly enforced most certainly not only restrict women's choices, but men's choices in what to consider beautiful too (by heterosexual normative standards, btw). It takes enough people to spit on these arbitrary standards to show how much better and more fun and more authentic mating and pair bonding is through conversation and movements rather than pick up lines and fixed forms. Learn to "dance" in your interactions, in other words.

LOVE this post.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
One of my partners recalled a date he went on recently. He met her through an online dating site and agreed to get together for a drink.

He saw her and noticed how much she looked like a magazine model. Then they began talking. Within 30 seconds, he was wondering how he could get out of that date smoothly and painlessly. He recalled it being one of the worst dates he'd ever been on.

"Even though she's beautiful?" I asked.

"She's not beautiful," he said, "Her measurements unfortunately came with a horrible and empty personality."

I thought his story is fabulously noteworthy - on so many levels - for both men and women.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
What type of self respect do I have, if I define "good" mate as one that I can only attract and keep because I succumb to societal pressure and standards of beauty?

You can call it succumbing (with all the negative connotations it has) or you can call it adapting - it is up to you.

Dress code should be a non issue when discussing my reproductive freedoms. I'm perfectly capable of reproduction. I require seed, not a mate.

If you are rich enough then yes, you only require seed. But for 90% of the women in the world they require a mate to reproduce - that mate being a man.

This boils down to the perpetuation of patriarchal standards and the inaccurate notion that a woman needs a man to reproduce, to be fulfilled or to project as having worth.

This has nothing to do with patriarchy - it is about the human urge to attract mates for reproduction which influences both men and women in different but equivalent ways.
Lastly, one of the very foundations of any community or soceity is that we need each other - old and young, male and female.

I don't find it self-respecting when one fuels the concept that to be worthy of mating, one must look a particular way, a way that usually conforms to a standard appeal as prescribed by men.

It is interesting to note that in your effort to blame men you forget that most women dress more often to impress each other than to impress men. Furthermore both men and women are equally influenced by pop culture and media in their understanding of what is attractive and what isn't. Men don't get to gather somewhere and decide what women should wear.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
It's that a strong and self-confident woman doesn't need to dress to impress she men. Sure, she may want to and enjoy the attention, but it certainly isn't to find a potential mate because relying on attire is only going to waste a ton of time with inevitably rejecting more than what would be considered even remotely worth a date, and that is because strong and self-confident men tend to look for women who are more than just their looks. So it does go back to "self respecting women not giving a flying fart" about if men approve of their attire or not.

You present it as an either or thing as if women can either try to impress men by how they dress or they can impress them with their personality. Nothing could be further from the truth. When a man goes for an important business meeting (job interview perhaps) he will often dress in a way he feels will impress. However his doing so is not a sign that he believes the only thing he needs to get a job is to look good. He knows he needs to be skilled at the job he's seeking. However he also understands that human beings are what they are and that what they see has an influence on what they think. He therefore decides that he doesn't want to hurt his chances by dressing in a way that will not impress.

There's also something to be said about a person who cares about other people's perceptions of them - and that something is not* always a bad thing.

*EDITED
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Dress codes that are explicitly or implicitly enforced most certainly not only restrict women's choices, but men's choices in what to consider beautiful too (by heterosexual normative standards, btw). It takes enough people to spit on these arbitrary standards to show how much better and more fun and more authentic mating and pair bonding is through conversation and movements rather than pick up lines and fixed forms. Learn to "dance" in your interactions, in other words.

I wonder, your comment evokes an image of 19th century courting rituals for me. Albeit with vastly more relaxed attire.
I'm not sure why, maybe I've just got it on my mind at the moment.

The "art of conversation." I guess being a Gen Y, the constant lamentation of the lack of which was basically my background music since childhood.

Do you think that "dressing the part" could be a mainly a youthful experience? One that we might grow out of with our wisdom.
I mean like we youngings don't have the experience or the confidence of proper conversation yet coupled with our constant reliance on technology since practically birth, maybe we might rely a bit more on flashy dressing than our older counterparts who have moved on from such naivety/awkwardness?

So is it a matter of the combo of nature and nurture or simply growing wiser to dating methods as we age?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You present it as an either or thing as if women can either try to impress men by how they dress or they can impress them with their personality. Nothing could be further from the truth. When a man goes for an important business meeting (job interview perhaps) he will often dress in a way he feels will impress. However his doing so is not a sign that he believes the only thing he needs to get a job is to look good. He knows he needs to be skilled at the job he's seeking. However he also understands that human beings are what they are and that what they see has an influence on what they think. He therefore decides that he doesn't want to hurt his chances by dressing in a way that will not impress.

There's also something to be said about a person who cares about other people's perceptions of them - and that something is not* always a bad thing.

*EDITED
That 100% applies to women - but more so for a woman because there is no "business standard" for women like there is for men, and she must balance and match clothes, makeup, and accessories, and do more than comb her hair.
And, what I said is that strong and confident men and women are typically looking for more than looks. They may dress nice, they may dress for attention, but they know a relationship built on looks won't last and it may not even be enjoyable.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
You can call it succumbing (with all the negative connotations it has) or you can call it adapting - it is up to you.

I call it as I've experienced it. I've rejected patriarchal constructs that serve to influence my image of self and I managed to find a life partner for whom I've never felt pressured to dress a certain way. We also have a child together.

If you are rich enough then yes, you only require seed. But for 90% of the women in the world they require a mate to reproduce - that mate being a man.

Mindset. As a woman, I've never approached my reproductive choices as hinging upon my ability to attract a man. I've seen other options.

I wanted marriage. I wanted to have a child with a spouse. But, I never felt like achieving that greatly hinged upon how successful I was at being aesthetically pleasing to a man. I always entered relationships concerned first and foremost as to how well our personalities and world views meshed.

If I were to be rejected because I didn't look a certain way, I considered myself fortunate that the relationship didn't work out, as such shallowness is far from appealing to me.

This has nothing to do with patriarchy - it is about the human urge to attract mates for reproduction which influences both men and women in different but equivalent ways.
Lastly, one of the very foundations of any community or soceity is that we need each other - old and young, male and female.

A woman's happiness and goals do not need to hinge upon the acceptance and approval of men. A community is only as strong as its members. Though, there are marked benefits to diversity - a strong community relies on contributing members that care to contribute to its strength.

It is interesting to note that in your effort to blame men you forget that most women dress more often to impress each other than to impress men. Furthermore both men and women are equally influenced by pop culture and media in their understanding of what is attractive and what isn't. Men don't get to gather somewhere and decide what women should wear.

I don't dress to impress women either.

Acknowledging patriarchal constructs does not translate to "blaming men". I agree that media impacts both men and women and their perceptions of beauty and often negatively. More and more though, I'm seeing positive messaging. As an example, there is more body positive imagery now than there was years ago.

As a feminist, I reject that anyone, male or female should feel pressured to accept and apply society-prescribed concepts of beauty. It's okay to reject the status quo and to be yourself. It's okay to accept the status quo, if it's meaningful to you.

It's not okay, in my opinion, for women to feel that they can't achieve their goals - be it to start a family or to get the job that they want - because they didn't dress a certain way. There's just so much wrong with this - and it's rooted not only in patriarchy but sexism and classism as well.
 
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Thanda

Well-Known Member
They may dress nice, they may dress for attention, but they know a relationship built on looks won't last and it may not even be enjoyable.

A much more balanced view and one I certainly agree with. And I have enough faith in the women of the world both past and present that most of them understand or understood that there are different requirements to attracting a mate versus to keep a mate.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I wonder, your comment evokes an image of 19th century courting rituals for me. Albeit with vastly more relaxed attire.
I'm not sure why, maybe I've just got it on my mind at the moment.

i wouldn't doubt that, actually. Some cultures place more importance on courtship rituals such as conversation by provisional locations, activities, and mostly through societal sex taboos. Too much shame with premarital sex provided less opportunity and more toward "well what do we do now?" moments. Courtship/conversation has always gone hand in hand, and it provides not just a great avenue for perspective, but is itself an adventure into eroticism.

The "art of conversation." I guess being a Gen Y, the constant lamentation of the lack of which was basically my background music since childhood.

Do you think that "dressing the part" could be a mainly a youthful experience? One that we might grow out of with our wisdom.
I mean like we youngings don't have the experience or the confidence of proper conversation yet coupled with our constant reliance on technology since practically birth, maybe we might rely a bit more on flashy dressing than our older counterparts who have moved on from such naivety/awkwardness?

I actually wouldn't be so quick to categorize youth with naïveté, SR. Some middle aged folks have no idea how to carry a conversation, and I've had incredibly charged and anticipatory conversations with people 20 years younger than me. The Internet actually is a valuable platform to textually communicate separately from the interaction through smiles, elbow-touches, and sparkling eyes. I like utilizing it.

So is it a matter of the combo of nature and nurture or simply growing wiser to dating methods as we age?

I liken wisdom to introspection from experience. Aging folks are easily set in their ways and can be just as ignorant as youngins who have barely stepped out into the world. Age DOES have the advantage of more numerous experiences, but without consistency in commitment to diversity, open mindedness, and introspection, older people just get....old, I guess. And less likely to reach out to try something new.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
You can call it succumbing (with all the negative connotations it has) or you can call it adapting - it is up to you.

Adapting implies necessity, which we've well established isn't the case at all. If you want to go that route, it's your prerogative, but you should also accept that some people are above that.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I call it as I've experienced it. I've rejected patriarchal constructs that serve to influence my image of self and I managed to find a life partner for whom I've never felt pressured to dress a certain way. We also have a child together.

Which is I said it is up to you. If you feel doing what you need to do to get a mate is necessarily succumbing you are welcome to that view. Others may view it as adapting in order to achieve one's goal.

I will again reject the idea that the societal pressures for people to find mates and reproduce is a product of patriarchy - I will continue to reject it throughout our conversation.

Mindset. As a woman, I've never approached my reproductive choices as hinging upon my ability to attract a man. I've seen other options. For me, it's instilled a sense of confidence and an a better appreciation at times for independence.

Again you speak of yourself - I don't know you so I cannot speak of your circumstances that have caused or allowed you to believe you can reproduce without a man. What I am asserting is that whatever allows you to do this is likely not an option of the overwhelming majority of the world's women today - and it certainly was an option in the thousands of years of our worlds history.

I wanted marriage. I wanted to have a child with a spouse. But, I never felt like achieving that greatly hinged upon how successful I was at being aesthetically pleasing to a man. I always entered relationships concerned first and foremost as to how well our personalities and world views meshed.

You are now slowly slipping into this discussion something that has not yet been an issue. Again I will refer you to the OP where the idea was about giving woman the widest range of options with regard to potential mates. It had nothing to do with settling down and getting married. That of course happens after courting where each person gets to understand each other's personality, values, goals and character.

Few if any men ever married a woman or desired to have children with her on account of what she wore the day he met her - and I'm sure most women (even those who dress to please men) understand that.

A woman's happiness and goals do not need to hinge upon the acceptance and approval of men. A community is only as strong as its members. Though, there are marked benefits to diversity - a strong community relies on contributing members that care to contribute to its strength.

Unless her goals and happiness include having a happy relationship with a man.

I'm not sure I understand where you are going with the community thing.

Acknowledging patriarchal constructs does not translate to "blaming men".

It does since women wanting to attract men in order to reproduce with has nothing to do with patriarchy and yet you keep trying to shoe-horn it into our discussion.
Women (most of them anyway) have a biological desire to reproduce with the best man they can find. To give themselves as many options as possible they seek to make themselves attractive to as many men as possible - they know they will not want to have a relationship with all those men who are attracted to them just as they also know not all men who are attracted to them (physically) will want to have a relationship with them. But they are just trying to keep their options open (or even trying to have options) and there is no evil or self-disrespect in that.

As a feminist, I reject that anyone, male or female should defined by a society-prescribed concept of beauty. It's okay to reject the status quo and to be yourself. It's okay to accept the status quo, if it's meaningful to you.

This explains your desire to blame patriarchy. But anyway it doesn't take a feminist to agree that one doesn't have follow the dictates of society like a slave. But there is also no shame in being pragmatic and doing what needs to be done to achieve your greater goals.

It's not okay, in my opinion, for women to feel that they can't achieve their goals - be it to start a family or to get the job that they want - because they didn't dress a certain way. There's just so much wrong with this - and it's rooted not only in patriarchy but sexism and classism as well.

Well the world is a place with human beings in it. If a woman has goals she must also understand that other people also have their goals. So if she shows up shabby to a job interview and doesn't get the job even though she ticks all other boxes - she shouldn't feel like a victim. Her goal was to dress however she wants regardless of what anyone else thinks - and the job interviewer's goal was to find someone who took pride in their appearance and could represent the company brand well. So everyone is entitled to their goals and standards.

And lastly, since even in matriarchal societies women dress to impress men I still fail to see how patriarchy is the cause of women wanting to impress men - especially since men also do what they can to try and impress women (in fact men are expected to chase after women). Again it just feels like a convenient way to blame men for something that seems quite biological and evolutionary in its origin.
 
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