Dress to Impress

[Secret Chief]

you get charged with contempt

Huh? Where do you live?

In the UK:
"There is no strict dress code and you can wear clothes you’re comfortable in, such as jeans and a t-shirt."
- Jury service

 

[Secret Chief]

I sometimes wonder if perhaps I had lived a past life sometime in the late 19th to the early 20th century, as I've always had a nostalgia for men's clothing of that period. It would explain why I find modern fashions to be slovenly if not repulsive.

We all have our opinions on the clothes of others, and in respect of appropriateness in various situations. It seems the pendulum has swung too far for you to casual from formal. My father always looked stiff, formal and old when I was growing up, but at that time that was normal. But now, I have reached an age that he never reached, but virtually never dress so formally as he always did.
Just the other day I met a Senior Leadership Team manager at a large local school. She had striped asymmetric hair colouring, a face stud, wore goth make-up, a grungy dress and patent (glossy) DM boots. Your head would have exploded.

 

[Glaurung]

Tell us why this worries you so. It may be interesting and sounds less trivial than your concerns about what others wear.

I appreciate the serious question and my answer will be a bit of a rant but hopefully you (and others reading this thread) may see where I am coming from.

It is not so much about what others wear so much as I find dress standards to be emblematic of a trend which I have come to resent with growing hatred; a precipitous decline in seriousness and public standards. I see Anglo-American culture (of which Australia is a member) as a culture locked in suspended adolescence. It fills me with contempt to see grown men in attire that has not substantially changed since they were ten. It is even worse if I have to endure the sight of their armpits, man boobs or butt cracks.

Another example is that not that long ago I was at the shops taking the escalator and in front of me was a young couple engaged in what was basically foreplay. Little could be more emblematic of a complete disregard for the public space. No one who has any regards for those around them fondles their partner on a shopping centre escalator! It's self-absorption that borders on solipsism.

Even in religion the precipitous decline in standards is apparent. The Tridentine Mass which is a glorious treasure of Western Christian culture was traded away in the 1970's for guitars and tambourines. Again, emblematic of a fundamental lack of seriousness that pervades everything. Everything has become ugly and everything panders to the lowest of denominators. People think I am pretentious because I love instrumental jazz, but better pretension than being a moron who listens to some pop star rap about her leaking genitals. Albeit, that grotesque 'song' is perhaps a reflection of the souls of a lot of people these days.

I look at the past and I see a world which took itself far more seriously. I look at old black and white portraits and I see men and women who almost exude dignity and gravitas. Then I look at the people around me as I drink my morning coffee and I see so-called adults who look like ugly, overgrown children. Of course, there were some decently dressed people, but the majority seem to have little to no regard for their appearance. And I felt outrage. Not because of their clothing but because there are almost no standards left.

I think what really triggered my thoughts on the matter was an incident a few years ago, when I saw an old man slowly dragging himself around with a walking stick. He was dressed in a suit and I could not help but admire him. He was old and barely able to walk, but his very presence dignified the space he occupied. If only more people would recognize that appearance does matter and that how you present yourself does reflect your dignity as a human being. That it is not a herculean effort to do better than the t-shirt and shorts that you happened to have woken up in.

 

[JustGeorge]

Yeah, nonsense. The idea that a button up shirt, a pair of trousers and a pair of shoes is just beyond the average Australian's/American's price range is a ludicrous assertion. No, the issue is laziness not money.

You obviously haven't been there. I have, and I've known other people who have. I'm telling you from experience, not pity, that people can be in that position.

I would hardly judge someone for turning up to the petrol station in work clothes. Look here, I work a blue collar job myself! But when I go to the shops and I see adults dressed like their children then I do reserve the right to judge them. I do reserve the right to judge people who turn up to court in a (insert heavy metal band) t-shirt and who smell like they haven't had a shower in days. I judge what I see as a culture that has lost basic public standards. And that goes beyond attire. I mean when did it become acceptable to curse in public and or have obscenities emblazoned on one's car? When did it become acceptable for couples to engage in borderline foreplay in public? No, the issue isn't poverty or a lack of time. It's that the distinction between the public and the private has collapsed and I think that is a bad thing.

I'm not talking about an employable job for the most part(though that could apply). I'm talking about the person at home scrubbing dishes/working on their car/mowing their lawn/etc that has a small window of time to get themselves a cold drink from the store that chooses to venture out into public in their old stained work clothes? I don't know about you, but I don't sit around elegantly dressed to scrub my kitchen. That would be dumb, because I'd ruin my clothes with cleaner and food. My cleaning clothes make me look someone like a hobo(and not the fun sort, like @Seeker of White Light ) And yes, when I have ten minutes to go grab something, I certainly do not go upstairs and change into my pretty stuff... because then I'd lost the opportunity.

You mention other things here... BO is a different issue. Cursing or being overtly sexual are also other issues. One can be a perfectly polite and decent human being while in a pair of pajama pants.

It certainly is your right to judge the guy in cut offs and the AC/DC shirt. But he's judging you, too. What makes your judgement more important than his? I often avoid people that are a little too dressy for the occasion, as I find they're often snobbish(with the exception if the person is elderly, or from another culture, as the standards of what's acceptable tend to be different).

A reason I feel there may be a difference between public and private now (and I want to let you know, I don't approve, but am just seeing it how I think it is)... People's(especially younger generations) lives take place... on screens. On social media accounts. So yes, they're in dirty sweats, but they're not really seeing you as being there. They might have phone in hand, talking about what they're ordering while you're staring at their armpit hair, presenting to an adoring public that... can't actually see them. Unless they choose to be seen.

This point really hit home for me one year... I was taking my son on a winter themed train ride(meant for kids). It was meant to be a memorable occasion; seasonal music and hot coco being passed out. The woman in the seat in front of me was probably in her late 20s, early 30s. Had two really cute kid. She was posting on Facebook on her phone. She did a selfie with her and the kids... and spent the rest of the time ignoring both children, editing the photo, and responding to comments on it. It really hit me at that point how 'reality' for most people was no longer their physical surroundings.

While I don't care for this aspect, things have changed. Even in my relatively short life, things are much different. Almost unrecognizably different.

I got tired of feeling like a child. I decided some years ago that being an adult necessitated an observance of some basic standards in terms of not only appearance but in my general conduct.

I don't know. When I was in middle school and high school, everyone judged you by what you were wearing... Most of us outgrew that, I think... I can agree with you that general conduct matters, but worrying about the clothing of others seems like a juvenile concern.

Spoiler: Look at the difference of only a few decades

I suspect people were less pressed for time in the 70s. Gotta take all the factors into why something may occur. Well, if you actually want to understand, that is.

As for dignity and old photos... I don't really feel anything looking at old photos. Not admiration, not disdain. You can see a picture and create a fantasy world that may or may not have existed. Perhaps people dressed better 80 years ago. Perhaps they had different issue, though.

I sometimes wonder if perhaps I had lived a past life sometime in the late 19th to the early 20th century, as I've always had a nostalgia for men's clothing of that period. It would explain why I find modern fashions to be slovenly if not repulsive.

It may surprise you to learn I actually dislike modern fashion as well. I actually do not own a pair of jeans, even. What I wear tends to reflect different times, and different places...

But if you see me at the gas station, I'll probably pass by you in dirty sweats, grabbing that snack quickly before my husband goes back to work and I lose my opportunity(need someone to watch the kids while I step away).

However, if you see me at the cafe, I'll probably be overdressed(though nonconventionally for the midwestern US).

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Thank you @Musing Bassist, for trying to elaborate on your worries about the blurring of lines between private and public life. Although, what comes through more in your reply is perhaps that you feel that others do not take life and themselves as seriously as you feel that they ought to…?

In any respect, the emotions that these things stir up in you may be suggesting a need for you to retreat from your usual environment for some time. Distance is good for the broadening of perspectives.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I see Anglo-American culture (of which Australia is a member)

Anglo-saxon culture has always griped, lamented, and endlessly *****ed about what others are doing and criticizing those who don't live up to their stiff, stuffy, life denying standards. You complain about t shirts today, in older times you'd have complained about glibbs on the Irish, or how the Pagans are wild, uncivilized and too naked.

 

[Shaul]

Huh? Where do you live?

In the UK:
"There is no strict dress code and you can wear clothes you’re comfortable in, such as jeans and a t-shirt."
- Jury service

And yet barristers are required to wear a funny wig. Small wonder the world muses about the British.

 

[mangalavara]

Personally, I have long banished shorts from my wardrobe

Me too. I banished them from my wardrobe over 10 years ago.

As for my fellow jurors however... t-shirts and (at best) jeans.

The previous time I went to a courthouse, I was one of the only two or three people dressed for it. Even though the jury summons said to dress formally, almost everybody there was dressed informally.

The issue is entirely one of laziness and an endemic lack of pride.

There is a lack of a dignified look in most if not all Anglophone countries. One thing I like about the Republic of Korea is that people here know how to look good in what they wear even if it's athletic apparel.

 

[Shaul]

So clothes make the man? As I see it it isn’t a matter of sloth nor penury. A person should dress not to impress but to respect. A person should dress in a manner which shows thought was given for those whom you think you might meet and encounter.

For myself my normal work attire are dress shoes, slacks, a white shirt with French cuffs and cuff links, and a tie. I have a large collection of ties that I use to entertain my students. As a teacher I dress this way to show my students that I respect them enough to dress as a professional, which I assume they deserve. In return they usually act as if they are deserving students. Of course not always. I could tell you many tales of bizarre student attire.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah, nonsense. The idea that a button up shirt, a pair of trousers and a pair of shoes is just beyond the average Australian's/American's price range is a ludicrous assertion. No, the issue is laziness not money.

For some it's neither (but it most definitely can be money). I used to dress in ways to draw your ire. But it was rooted in depression and a life of people ****ting on me and breaking my ability to care.
Today you probably still wouldn't like how I dress as I still look like I could pick up a guitar and start playing with a punk or metal band, but I get a lot of attention and compliments.
And if you say anything about my shoes, because you likely would, you'd just be making an *** of yourself complaining of my wearing very thick-soled running shoes (Hokas) over a disability you can't see when my legs are covered (bowed shins and multiple surgery scars). But they relieve knee and ankle pain, so cringe all you want. You'll be the arse and that's all there is to it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Tridentine Mass which is a glorious treasure of Western Christian culture was traded away in the 1970's for guitars and tambourines.

And this is a bad thing how? I ask seriously, because this "glorious treasure of Western Christian culture" is very and highly centered around Anglo-Saxon standards, standards that have LONG condemned those who aren't Anglo-Saxon. You complain about this as if it's a new thing, but Anglo-Saxon standards have long criticized the traditions and customs of the Celts, Danes, Indians, Asians, Africans, and the Natives and Aboriginals around the world. Like in Australia, where these trivial and nonsensical AS standards have made it so the aboriginals in politics are forbidden from wearing traditional neck pieces and must instead wear ties.
That's what this "glorious treasure of Western Christian culture" has gotten us.

 

[Secret Chief]

And yet barristers are required to wear a funny wig. Small wonder the world muses about the British.

I know, and no-one muses about America.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I know, and no-one muses about America.

America and how mostly the rest of the West looks at it, at times I get the feeling that's a fair approximation of how Pagan Europe looked at their Christian counterparts, lmao.

 

[Glaurung]

And this is a bad thing how?

It was a triumph of philistinism that was misguided but well intentioned at best and ideologically driven iconoclasm at worst.

I ask seriously, because this "glorious treasure of Western Christian culture" is very and highly centered around Anglo-Saxon standards, standards that have LONG condemned those who aren't Anglo-Saxon.

Anglo-Saxon standards?

The Tridentine Mass (from Tridentum, modern day Trento) was the standardized liturgy of the Roman Rite. The English did have the a 'use' called the Sarum (used by Salisbury Cathedral) which was a ceremonial more complex than what was standardized by Saint Pope Pius V at Trent. The point is that the Tridentine Mass is not an inherently 'Anglo-Saxon' ritual.

You complain about this as if it's a new thing, but Anglo-Saxon standards have long criticized the traditions and customs of the Celts, Danes, Indians, Asians, Africans, and the Natives and Aboriginals around the world.

I was talking about how the Catholic Church suppressed (effectively banned) its own centuries old liturgy for a new ceremonial that (in practice) is far less serious that what it replaced. Again, I complained about it as another emblematic example of my general complaint of this thread. That everything has become trivialized and less serious. That not even religion has escaped the march towards banality.

Like in Australia, where these trivial and nonsensical AS standards have made it so the aboriginals in politics are forbidden from wearing traditional neck pieces and must instead wear ties.

To my knowledge, Australian Aboriginals did not wear clothing prior to contact with Europeans.

That's what this "glorious treasure of Western Christian culture" has gotten us.

As opposed to what? Because the pre-Christian cultures with their cults of animal and human sacrifice, cannibalism, infanticide, pederasty and caste were just so much more enlightened than what Christianity brought to the world.

 

[Secret Chief]

Hoka

Seriously good shoes. I'd forgotten about them, might just get another pair when my current Sauconys die.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As opposed to what? Because the pre-Christian cultures with their cults of animal and human sacrifice, cannibalism, infanticide, pederasty and caste were just so much more enlightened than what Christianity brought to the world.

You most definitely aren't describing my Pagan ancestors.

To my knowledge, Australian Aboriginals did not wear clothing prior to contact with Europeans.

That's what the "civilized types" have long claimed about those they don't like. Everyone else but the Greeks, Romans, and Anglo-Saxons were naked. Except they weren't.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Seriously good shoes. I'd forgotten about them, might just get another pair when my current Sauconys die.

They really are. I highly recommend them, especially when it's someone working in the medical field or one of the warehouse asking me about them. How long they last and the comfort should definitely take precedence over conventional dress codes and appearance standards. You shouldn't have to have bum knees to always be able to wear shoes that are great on your feet.