Drug Overdose Kills More American Than Guns

[Acim]

I didn't say sex trafficking, I said human trafficking.

I see sex trafficking as part of human trafficking. Everything I google puts sex trafficking as primary example of human trafficking. For the other, I'd want to hear examples of it, and more than one. I know it exists, but admittedly, I would see some of that as not responsibility of government except in indirect ways, such that everyone needs or could use help/workers to accomplish what they want, and for whatever reason (likely regulations or costs) are unable to hire such people.

As I stated earlier, this one is convoluted. I know in my life, I've felt like an indentured servant, which I recognize on hindsight isn't accurate way of putting it, but doesn't really address how I felt at the time. People claim, love your job or find one you do love. But many times, in my past experience (and many of those I've known), it was get what you can and tough it up, no on likes going to work. If your boss asks you do something, and you don't want to, do it anyway, and be happy you have a job. So, with all the mundane work out there, which offers very little reward, other than minimum wage, it can induce that feeling of being a servant. I see that as definitely different than slavery, but still in vein of feeling forced to continue, or go homeless/hungry.

I say all that, cause I see the labor type of human trafficking being about human exploitation, and in some ways is made easy by the way humans value their own selves. Are you aware of a number of cases where people loved the work they currently do, but ended up on the human trafficking market anyway? I'd like to hear of those examples.

I see government responsible in a broad way, that is also a bit convoluted, but I see the connections. Some people I think are instilled at a young age to see their value is based on work they contribute and that work isn't meant to be enjoyable, and that heroes and good workers don't necessarily enjoy what they do, but they make the necessary sacrifice for country, family, etc.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I didn't say sex trafficking, I said human trafficking. Specifically the straight up slavery sort. It's still a pretty widespread issue.
Incidentally prostitution =! Human trafficking. Ownership of human body by another human is still illegal even where prostitution is legal.

Prostitutes, when legal, involves them being no more owned than a musician being payed to perform.
At least with legal prostitution we could have health screenings, regulations, and deal a heavy blow to sex slavery when the criminals don't make as much money and their profit margin collapses because it's too easy for "John" to get a prostitute through legal means.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Prostitutes, when legal, involves them being no more owned than a musician being payed to perform.
At least with legal prostitution we could have health screenings, regulations, and deal a heavy blow to sex slavery when the criminals don't make as much money and their profit margin collapses because it's too easy for "John" to get a prostitute through legal means.

I agree, I'm for legal and regulated prostitution. I'm not for any kind of human slavery.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I see sex trafficking as part of human trafficking. Everything I google puts sex trafficking as primary example of human trafficking. For the other, I'd want to hear examples of it, and more than one. I know it exists, but admittedly, I would see some of that as not responsibility of government except in indirect ways, such that everyone needs or could use help/workers to accomplish what they want, and for whatever reason (likely regulations or costs) are unable to hire such people.

As I stated earlier, this one is convoluted. I know in my life, I've felt like an indentured servant, which I recognize on hindsight isn't accurate way of putting it, but doesn't really address how I felt at the time. People claim, love your job or find one you do love. But many times, in my past experience (and many of those I've known), it was get what you can and tough it up, no on likes going to work. If your boss asks you do something, and you don't want to, do it anyway, and be happy you have a job. So, with all the mundane work out there, which offers very little reward, other than minimum wage, it can induce that feeling of being a servant. I see that as definitely different than slavery, but still in vein of feeling forced to continue, or go homeless/hungry.

I say all that, cause I see the labor type of human trafficking being about human exploitation, and in some ways is made easy by the way humans value their own selves. Are you aware of a number of cases where people loved the work they currently do, but ended up on the human trafficking market anyway? I'd like to hear of those examples.

I see government responsible in a broad way, that is also a bit convoluted, but I see the connections. Some people I think are instilled at a young age to see their value is based on work they contribute and that work isn't meant to be enjoyable, and that heroes and good workers don't necessarily enjoy what they do, but they make the necessary sacrifice for country, family, etc.

I have a pretty severe separation on what I consider employership and slavery, so I don't think the two can be meaningfully compared. But in workplace exploitation I don't find the government more culpable than the exploited. Same with human trafficking. I find lack of oversight and negligence would make them culpable, but not making something illegal that has a market, in which that market creates victims by the participants.

 

[Acim]

I have a pretty severe separation on what I consider employership and slavery, so I don't think the two can be meaningfully compared. But in workplace exploitation I don't find the government more culpable than the exploited. Same with human trafficking. I find lack of oversight and negligence would make them culpable, but not making something illegal that has a market, in which that market creates victims by the participants.

I think the thing that makes this challenging, more convoluted, is that some people may actually be okay with being slaves. I realize how controversial that is, but for right now I stand by it. I think in cases where people are clearly not okay with it, there is something unmistakably wrong in the situation. But it somewhat comes down to being of service to others, and employership and slavery cover both. If the person loves what they are doing, is it slavery? What if it is slavery and the person (the slave) is okay with this? I think what makes it convoluted is the idea of threat and force where that is unwanted, vs. cases where that is identified by the person as expectation of how things are supposed to work (for them, or what they believe to be true for everyone). Under any form of economic theory that's popular, I often wonder what occurs if you don't want to work, but are perfectly capable of contributing? And I think the often implied consequence amounts to some form of threat (along lines of you become a have not) or force (you work whether you want to or not, for everyone must work in order for society to function). So, if you have a bunch of mid-level type managers who are exercising the will of "work or else" then I see that as akin to human traffickers who seek to exploit humans for labor. I would think it possible to have a rather kind hearted soul who engages in human trafficking, and feels they take good care of their slaves/workers.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I think the thing that makes this challenging, more convoluted, is that some people may actually be okay with being slaves. I realize how controversial that is, but for right now I stand by it. I think in cases where people are clearly not okay with it, there is something unmistakably wrong in the situation. But it somewhat comes down to being of service to others, and employership and slavery cover both. If the person loves what they are doing, is it slavery? What if it is slavery and the person (the slave) is okay with this? I think what makes it convoluted is the idea of threat and force where that is unwanted, vs. cases where that is identified by the person as expectation of how things are supposed to work (for them, or what they believe to be true for everyone). Under any form of economic theory that's popular, I often wonder what occurs if you don't want to work, but are perfectly capable of contributing? And I think the often implied consequence amounts to some form of threat (along lines of you become a have not) or force (you work whether you want to or not, for everyone must work in order for society to function). So, if you have a bunch of mid-level type managers who are exercising the will of "work or else" then I see that as akin to human traffickers who seek to exploit humans for labor. I would think it possible to have a rather kind hearted soul who engages in human trafficking, and feels they take good care of their slaves/workers.

I can't believe that you're actually trying to start a dialogue saying that if someone enjoys being a slave that makes slavery okay, and that employership is in any way meaningfully comparable to slavery if employees are unhappy. I don't think we're going to find any common ground. Employership isn't slavery, and slavery is wrong even if someone claims to want to be one.

 

[Acim]

I can't believe that you're actually trying to start a dialogue saying that if someone enjoys being a slave that makes slavery okay, and that employership is in any way meaningfully comparable to slavery if employees are unhappy. I don't think we're going to find any common ground. Employership isn't slavery, and slavery is wrong even if someone claims to want to be one.

So, we disagree. That's fine by me.

 

[Underhill]

For the first time ever more Americans died from opioid overdose than firearms.
Heroin Overdoses Kill More People Than HIV, Melanoma or Firearms
Yet there are those that say drug dealers are non-violent criminals.

So, what say you. What is the answer, if there is one?

People choose to take drugs. You don't choose to get shot.

 

[psychoslice]

At least if someone pointed their drug at me it wont kill me, if they want to kill themselves then that's fine with me.

 

[esmith]

People choose to take drugs. You don't choose to get shot.

Well not necessarily true...every hear of suicide-by-cop

 

[Underhill]

Well not necessarily true...every hear of suicide-by-cop

You are reaching. Sure it happens. And people can lace your drink. But both are the tiniest minority of cases.

 

[esmith]

You are reaching. Sure it happens. And people can lace your drink. But both are the tiniest minority of cases.

No I'm not reaching. There are many studies about this issue if you would care to research before you make a statement. In actuality I think you might be just a slight bit prejudice. Oh, by the way having ones drink laced and one dies it is not suicide, it is murder.
Suicide by Cop: Broadening Our Understanding
6 Surprising Suicide by Cop Statistics - HRFnd

 

[Underhill]

No I'm not reaching. There are many studies about this issue if you would care to research before you make a statement. In actuality I think you might be just a slight bit prejudice. Oh, by the way having ones drink laced and one dies it is not suicide, it is murder.
Suicide by Cop: Broadening Our Understanding
6 Surprising Suicide by Cop Statistics - HRFnd

I know about the subject. My point is you are trying to equate the two and in most cases they are not the same at all. Yes, there are exceptions on both, but those do not change the fact that equating the two is comparing apples and orangutans in the vast majority of cases.