Duality

[Brendan Crumrine]

Was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss the importance of duality in Taoism? I sometimes wonder if duality is too restrictive a concept for the Tao. I mean inherently it is unknowable, sure, but within the canon (which is widely accepted at least as wise) there is a proposal of duality. But can there be intrinsic trinities and so on?

Does form have to be between two entities, shape and substance, or can shape and substance be shared in portions? If it can be shared in portions can it be distributed between more than two entities?

My initial proposal is that it can be, that the wind travels across the land, giving shape to the landscape by being absent in some places and present in other but it is one wind. Wind being comparable to shape, and the landscape being comparable to substance.

When This and That opposed each other they gave rise to shape. They were the substance that created shape through antagonism. But just because in creation there was such sparse articles to work with doesn't necessarily entail it continues all the way down the chain. Though Chuang Tzu's discussion on the mustard seed may imply it does and it is a good argument. Maybe we arn't at the right perspective to see the true duality. What's your thoughts?

 

[mystic64]

Was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss the importance of duality in Taoism? I sometimes wonder if duality is too restrictive a concept for the Tao. I mean inherently it is unknowable, sure, but within the canon (which is widely accepted at least as wise) there is a proposal of duality. But can there be intrinsic trinities and so on?

Does form have to be between two entities, shape and substance, or can shape and substance be shared in portions? If it can be shared in portions can it be distributed between more than two entities?

My initial proposal is that it can be, that the wind travels across the land, giving shape to the landscape by being absent in some places and present in other but it is one wind. Wind being comparable to shape, and the landscape being comparable to substance.

When This and That opposed each other they gave rise to shape. They were the substance that created shape through antagonism. But just because in creation there was such sparse articles to work with doesn't necessarily entail it continues all the way down the chain. Though Chuang Tzu's discussion on the mustard seed may imply it does and it is a good argument. Maybe we arn't at the right perspective to see the true duality. What's your thoughts?

Hi Brenan and welcome to the message board! About your OP? Humm ? How about this, "Tao" tanslates "Way". The goal is to walk with the "Tao". This concept basically creates a "dualistic" reality. You as an individual walking with the "Tao". "Taoism" is not about oneness it is about being in harmony with Creation and those around you. And Creation is made up of two opposites that are in various versions of interaction with each other. Duality is not about entities, it is about the interaction between two opposites that results in what we call and measure as Creation. And because we as individuals are a part of this energy dynamic interplay both as the physical and the mental the "Tao" or the "Way" is us, if we follow it properly, walking through this constant interplay of opposites in a "harmonious" way.

Maybe ?

 

[allfoak]

Duality is an fun concept to think about.

It holds the secrets of life and death.

 

[Straw Dog]

Was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss the importance of duality in Taoism? I sometimes wonder if duality is too restrictive a concept for the Tao. I mean inherently it is unknowable, sure, but within the canon (which is widely accepted at least as wise) there is a proposal of duality. But can there be intrinsic trinities and so on?

Does form have to be between two entities, shape and substance, or can shape and substance be shared in portions? If it can be shared in portions can it be distributed between more than two entities?

My initial proposal is that it can be, that the wind travels across the land, giving shape to the landscape by being absent in some places and present in other but it is one wind. Wind being comparable to shape, and the landscape being comparable to substance.

When This and That opposed each other they gave rise to shape. They were the substance that created shape through antagonism. But just because in creation there was such sparse articles to work with doesn't necessarily entail it continues all the way down the chain. Though Chuang Tzu's discussion on the mustard seed may imply it does and it is a good argument. Maybe we arn't at the right perspective to see the true duality. What's your thoughts?

I don't know that it has to do with 'duality' so much as it does with 'dynamics'. All life evolves through constant change and relative progress. There may even be a specific nameable force that stimulates change or progress.

'Shape' and 'substance' are perceived extremes. Remember that we are the ones naming them. Likewise, 'this' and 'that' only appear in opposition according to a conditioned process of contrast and resolution.

 

[psychoslice]

Duality, the beautiful illusion.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Duality is useful in respect to harmony and balence, yet still undifferentiated as the whole where such distinctions need not apply.

Its still beautifully expressed through the symbolism of yin/yang.

 

[Brendan Crumrine]

Hi Brenan and welcome to the message board! About your OP? Humm ? How about this, "Tao" tanslates "Way". The goal is to walk with the "Tao". This concept basically creates a "dualistic" reality. You as an individual walking with the "Tao". "Taoism" is not about oneness it is about being in harmony with Creation and those around you. And Creation is made up of two opposites that are in various versions of interaction with each other. Duality is not about entities, it is about the interaction between two opposites that results in what we call and measure as Creation. And because we as individuals are a part of this energy dynamic interplay both as the physical and the mental the "Tao" or the "Way" is us, if we follow it properly, walking through this constant interplay of opposites in a "harmonious" way.

Maybe ?

I could see that as a very traditional view in reference to the literature. But if we take into account that the Way is inescapable and that to deny the way, to try to alter it still leaves you in the way than decisions really have no effect on what the way is. A non-Taoist is just as much following the Tao as a Taoist is. And if Duality is about interaction between opposites (duality being two) we could just as easily subscribe any number of points within a circle and draw an arrow pointing to their neighbor to denote relation and opposition (to infinity), as long as it is within the confines of the circle. In the Tao Te Ching there are constant descriptions of how to bring about non-change, but if we watch these through our new historical lens it obvious that the changes Lao Tzu thought could bring inaction lead to action. Whether it is taking away knowledge, which leads to the desire for knowledge, or to take about general luxury goods and possessions, which leads to the desire for possession, non-change, balance, or harmony (if you meant it this way) is unachievable and ultimately undesirable for any Taoist. And if non-change is unachievable and opposition must always exist on what level in our observable area is it? Does a happy person mean that there is a sad one? Or are their two sad people? Is happiness only in relation to sadness? Is anger a bit like sadness so that it can be interchangable? Does contentness oppose happiness or does it oppose sadness? Both at once?

 

[mystic64]

I could see that as a very traditional view in reference to the literature. But if we take into account that the Way is inescapable and that to deny the way, to try to alter it still leaves you in the way than decisions really have no effect on what the way is. A non-Taoist is just as much following the Tao as a Taoist is. And if Duality is about interaction between opposites (duality being two) we could just as easily subscribe any number of points within a circle and draw an arrow pointing to their neighbor to denote relation and opposition (to infinity), as long as it is within the confines of the circle. In the Tao Te Ching there are constant descriptions of how to bring about non-change, but if we watch these through our new historical lens it obvious that the changes Lao Tzu thought could bring inaction lead to action. Whether it is taking away knowledge, which leads to the desire for knowledge, or to take about general luxury goods and possessions, which leads to the desire for possession, non-change, balance, or harmony (if you meant it this way) is unachievable and ultimately undesirable for any Taoist. And if non-change is unachievable and opposition must always exist on what level in our observable area is it? Does a happy person mean that there is a sad one? Or are their two sad people? Is happiness only in relation to sadness? Is anger a bit like sadness so that it can be interchangable? Does contentness oppose happiness or does it oppose sadness? Both at once?

In my opinion Brendan, what you said is well said . And thank you for saying that what I presented is a very traditional view in reference to the literature and what you said is right on! I am in the Taoist DIR as an interested long time student and you are a declared "Taoist", so in this topic and DIR, you are the expert and I am the guest.

"Was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss the importance of duality in Taoism? I sometimes wonder if duality is too restrictive a concept for the Tao." "Maybe we arn't at the right perspective to see the true duality. What's your thoughts?" The maybe we aren't at the right place to see the true duality seems to me to be an interesting place to start because it leaves room to learn new things and it seems to be the foundation for your topic. In Taoism the statement, "Go with the flow." comes up and it is usually associated with water. If we look at life as an environment of currents that are interacting with each other and with stationary objects, then we become entities that are affected by that dynamic environment both as current and as stationary objects. And to walk in the "tao" would be to be able to successfully exist and function in that dynamic environment. To have the ability to go with the flow, so to speak . Duality in all of its various directions and manifested results versus us . And this includes the known and the unknown with the unknown creating unpedictability. The western mind teaches that the object is to control the flow (and remove the objects) and the Tao teaches that the object is to go with the flow (and around the objects). The western mind teaches that it you can not control the flow that you are vulnerable, the Tao teaches that if you can not go with the flow that you are vulnerable. The western mind teaches the "battle" and the Tao teaches the "dance". "Maybe we aren't at the right perspective to see true reality?" Is yours a western mind Brendan? And if so, how does that effect the way that you see the "Tao"?

 

[Wu Wei]

That Dualism (Yin & Yang) are all part of one thing, the Tao and I view it the same as day follows night, the change of the seasons, good and evil, sickness and health, and life and death

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

My impression is that Taoist duality is not polarity, but rather the acknowledgment that nothing can exist without its opposite. If you define "light" as a category, it creates "dark" to encompass that which is not "light". If you define "heat" you are also marking "cold" etc etc. And you can do it either way around; light could be the absence of darkness. It is absolutely symmetrical.

 

[mystic64]

My impression is that Taoist duality is not polarity, but rather the acknowledgment that nothing can exist without its opposite. If you define "light" as a category, it creates "dark" to encompass that which is not "light". If you define "heat" you are also marking "cold" etc etc. And you can do it either way around; light could be the absence of darkness. It is absolutely symmetrical.

I would just add that it is the interplay between two opposites. And I do agree with you that Taoist duality is not polarity.

 

[chevron1]

Was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss the importance of duality in Taoism? I sometimes wonder if duality is too restrictive a concept for the Tao.

i have not seen the movie Star Wars: The Force Awakens, but i have heard it is a test of the validity of duality, specifically yin and yang.

 

[Brendan Crumrine]

In my opinion Brendan, what you said is well said . And thank you for saying that what I presented is a very traditional view in reference to the literature and what you said is right on! I am in the Taoist DIR as an interested long time student and you are a declared "Taoist", so in this topic and DIR, you are the expert and I am the guest.

"Was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss the importance of duality in Taoism? I sometimes wonder if duality is too restrictive a concept for the Tao." "Maybe we aren't at the right perspective to see the true duality. What's your thoughts?" The maybe we aren't at the right place to see the true duality seems to me to be an interesting place to start because it leaves room to learn new things and it seems to be the foundation for your topic. In Taoism the statement, "Go with the flow." comes up and it is usually associated with water. If we look at life as an environment of currents that are interacting with each other and with stationary objects, then we become entities that are affected by that dynamic environment both as current and as stationary objects. And to walk in the "tao" would be to be able to successfully exist and function in that dynamic environment. To have the ability to go with the flow, so to speak . Duality in all of its various directions and manifested results versus us . And this includes the known and the unknown with the unknown creating unpedictability. The western mind teaches that the object is to control the flow (and remove the objects) and the Tao teaches that the object is to go with the flow (and around the objects). The western mind teaches that it you can not control the flow that you are vulnerable, the Tao teaches that if you can not go with the flow that you are vulnerable. The western mind teaches the "battle" and the Tao teaches the "dance". "Maybe we aren't at the right perspective to see true reality?" Is yours a western mind Brendan? And if so, how does that effect the way that you see the "Tao"?

Sorry about the late reply, the hard drive on my computer broke and my mobile can't do replies on here. I probably didn't express it right but the foundation of my topic is in the idea that the Tao is so unknowable and and seemingly non-selective that I think it is strange we apply duality to it when we cannot necessarily see the duality in all things. Of course duality works fine in a metaphorical sense but as evidence it is purely anecdotal. Sure I've seen it once or twice, but for the most part there is very little observation of it. And that is what makes Taoism a strange religion, it has to observed through intuition otherwise we would use facts and end up with science. I mean we have no prophets, there is no god, nothing but other people are giving us a heads up yet when we read their books we take them as law. Personally I think Lao Tzu is ludicrous on a number of topics, especially his desires for immortality and non-change when he purports that no man can keep what he has. Been trying to see if they are symbolic images but they seem more like political advisement pieces.

I mean where does the idea that we are thoughtfully going with the flow come from when there is no other option. There is no land to grab hold of, no branches in the river, it's all just leading forward. I mean, to live the most poor and miserable life is Tao, and to be rich and to hoard beyond all reason is also Tao, especially if there is some total entropic balance where the substance and surroundings constantly exchange variables,

Lastly I was born in the west, yes, but I don't see that being such a strong factor anymore with globalization. And often I see in eastern writings the intense desire to redirect the Tao, to apply "Magic" and "Medicine" to change what is natural. I was taking an Anthro class in the summer and there was this proposal of Ethnocentricity, where we apply a generalization to cultures, and we try to decided which are inferior to others. The overall statement was that this is a fallacy, that people individually act as they wish and develop different perspectives within their society. I mean Asia has put out some of the biggest armies in history, has effected some of the largest political change and historically produced of 3/4's of all produced goods in the world until industrialization. They have actively moved things and battled others decisions for their regions. They have also moved through many ideologies in every last corner of the east, from India to South Asia, the Peninsular Region, The Coastal Islands, The Steppes and interior region/eastern coast where China currently is.

 

[chevron1]

I probably didn't express it right but the foundation of my topic is in the idea that the Tao is so unknowable and and seemingly non-selective that I think it is strange we apply duality to it when we cannot necessarily see the duality in all things. .

if you speak of Tao, the duality nature of Tao is in the scriptures. the duality of yin and yang in all living things generates life.

for example, the Tao Te Ching ch. 42:

• 
  The Dao gave birth to the One.
  The One gave birth to the Two.
  The Two gave birth to the Three.
  The Three gave birth to the ten thousand things.
  The ten thousand things carry yin on their back and embrace yang.
  Through the blending of qi, they arrive at a state of harmony.

• 
  TTC ch. 42; Michael, Thomas, The Pristine Dao: Metaphysics In Early Daoist Discourse, Albany: SUNY Press, c. 2005, p. 56.

 

[mystic64]

Sorry about the late reply, the hard drive on my computer broke and my mobile can't do replies on here. I probably didn't express it right but the foundation of my topic is in the idea that the Tao is so unknowable and and seemingly non-selective that I think it is strange we apply duality to it when we cannot necessarily see the duality in all things. Of course duality works fine in a metaphorical sense but as evidence it is purely anecdotal. Sure I've seen it once or twice, but for the most part there is very little observation of it. And that is what makes Taoism a strange religion, it has to observed through intuition otherwise we would use facts and end up with science. I mean we have no prophets, there is no god, nothing but other people are giving us a heads up yet when we read their books we take them as law. Personally I think Lao Tzu is ludicrous on a number of topics, especially his desires for immortality and non-change when he purports that no man can keep what he has. Been trying to see if they are symbolic images but they seem more like political advisement pieces.

I mean where does the idea that we are thoughtfully going with the flow come from when there is no other option. There is no land to grab hold of, no branches in the river, it's all just leading forward. I mean, to live the most poor and miserable life is Tao, and to be rich and to hoard beyond all reason is also Tao, especially if there is some total entropic balance where the substance and surroundings constantly exchange variables,

Lastly I was born in the west, yes, but I don't see that being such a strong factor anymore with globalization. And often I see in eastern writings the intense desire to redirect the Tao, to apply "Magic" and "Medicine" to change what is natural. I was taking an Anthro class in the summer and there was this proposal of Ethnocentricity, where we apply a generalization to cultures, and we try to decided which are inferior to others. The overall statement was that this is a fallacy, that people individually act as they wish and develop different perspectives within their society. I mean Asia has put out some of the biggest armies in history, has effected some of the largest political change and historically produced of 3/4's of all produced goods in the world until industrialization. They have actively moved things and battled others decisions for their regions. They have also moved through many ideologies in every last corner of the east, from India to South Asia, the Peninsular Region, The Coastal Islands, The Steppes and interior region/eastern coast where China currently is.

Brendan, one really needs to be able to explore the mystic side of things to truly understand the Dao/Tao. And Brendan, I do understand why you are questioning the application of the concept of "duality" when it comes to the Tao. A master of the Dao/Tao (Way) would tell you Brendan that you have now achieved the understanding necessary to walk the Tao (Way).

 

[chevron1]

Brendan, one really needs to be able to explore the mystic side of things to truly understand the Dao/Tao.

in metaphysical taoism, it is the metaphysical side of things that is explored. they say the world is careening to disaster with global warming, overpopulation and asteriods on a collision course with the earth. that's why it's important more than ever to understand how it all works.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Two sides of the same coin?

 

[Tumah]

I wonder if Taoism is really describing duality or triality.
Consider that the dao is neither yin nor yang, but a harmony of the two that doesn't exist in either, but can't exist without them.

 

[chevron1]

I wonder if Taoism is really describing duality or triality.
Consider that the dao is neither yin nor yang, but a harmony of the two that doesn't exist in either, but can't exist without them.

tao is two parts: wu-ji the cosmic mother, dark and void and outside of existence, and tai-ji, the known visible universe. therefore, tao is duality too. see tao te ching ch. 42 above. in tao te ching ch. 1, the "nameless" is the cosmic mother wuji and the named is the taiji.

The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures.
...

These two are the same
But diverge in name as they issue forth.

lau, d.c., tao te ching, p. 1.​

 

[Mindmaster]

I wonder if Taoism is really describing duality or triality.
Consider that the dao is neither yin nor yang, but a harmony of the two that doesn't exist in either, but can't exist without them.

There is no actual division, only an illusion cast on one.

tao is two parts: wu-ji the cosmic mother, dark and void and outside of existence, and tai-ji, the known visible universe. therefore, tao is duality too. see tao te ching ch. 42 above. in tao te ching ch. 1, the "nameless" is the cosmic mother wuji and the named is the taiji.

The nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of the myriad creatures.
...

These two are the same
But diverge in name as they issue forth.

lau, d.c., tao te ching, p. 1.​

This comment pretty much matches my understandings after plenty of meditation on the subject.