Dutch Government censors David Icke (not allowed to come to Holland)

[Debater Slayer]

I take both the long & the libertarian view.
Tis better to give government less control over speech.

Well, it's safe to say I'm not a libertarian, at least not on this issue.

You're welcome to prefer government managed speech.
I'll take our freer environment.

I don't see your environment as more free; only as different. It seems to me that freedom is about much more than unrestricted speech, and looking at the US through a comprehensive lens concerning feeedom, it's certainly not more free overall than much of Europe. Abortion bans and the increasing risks to other legal rights are prominent examples of this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There are plenty of activists and speakers who freely criticize Israel in the EU, and I fully agree with them. The issues with Icke seem to run deeper than that; I don't think it's unreasonable for the EU in particular to be wary of conspiracy theories involving Jews.

That said, if Icke could somehow guarantee he wouldn't repeat that kind of rhetoric within the EU, then I would disagree with the decision to deny him entry.

I think the rally should also be able to proceed without him if it's only about the Ukraine and the energy crisis, though.

I don't think Icke is the type to allow himself to be muzzled and I don't blame him. They don't appear to want to negotiate with him about it, either. So screw 'em.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't think Icke is the type to allow himself to be muzzled and I don't blame him. They don't appear to want to negotiate with him about it, either. So screw 'em.

I don't see practicing restraint as allowing oneself to be muzzled. He still has most of the world to preach from, anyway. I think he'll be fine, as will the EU.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, it's safe to say I'm not a libertarian, at least not on this issue.



I don't see your environment as more free; only as different. It seems to me that freedom is about much more than unrestricted speech, and looking at the US through a comprehensive lens concerning feeedom, it's certainly not more free overall than much of Europe. Abortion bans and the increasing risks to other legal rights are prominent examples of this.

I spoke of freer speech. I prefer it. And it is
indeed a right that needs defense from regular
threats. Besides, reducing our speech rights
wouldn't advance the other rights in any way.
Nay, it would harm them.
Just being like Europe isn't an option for us.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Dutch Government censors David Icke (not allowed to come to Holland to give a speech)

Big Brother is getting implemented more and more. Holland used to be democratic, but not allowing David Icke to come to Holland to give a speech is 1 step further towards censorship

What do you believe?
It's good to censor freedom of speech?
All humans are equal, but some are more equal than others?

David Icke's free speech is intact.

What's at issue is whether he's entitled to enter a country where he isn't a citizen. He isn't.

Border officials have broad latitude to bar undesirable people from entering their country, and an anti-semitic conspiracy theorist isn't exactly desirable to anyone.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Free speech is gradually taken away

Governments lies and twists facts

What does this have to do with free speech?

David Icke still has free reign to spew his nonsense. He's also free to complain to whoever will listen about how he feels about the government of the Netherlands.

Icke's free speech is intact.

 

[Estro Felino]

Does the Vatican allow him to come onto the grounds and do this speaking?

The Vatican is a dictatorship, I am speaking of Italy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't see practicing restraint as allowing oneself to be muzzled. He still has most of the world to preach from, anyway. I think he'll be fine, as will the EU.

He'll be fine, not sure about the EU, though.

 

[Estro Felino]

To point this out:
any EU provision that violates the first 12 articles of our Constitution is not applicable in our country.
So, Icke can speak in our country, and nobody can prevent him from doing that.

Besides, I do know people who have very similar theories to those of Icke and nobody has ever tried to prevent him from speaking (besides some very marginal intellectual élites).

 

[sayak83]

Dutch Government censors David Icke (not allowed to come to Holland to give a speech)

Big Brother is getting implemented more and more. Holland used to be democratic, but not allowing David Icke to come to Holland to give a speech is 1 step further towards censorship

What do you believe?
It's good to censor freedom of speech?
All humans are equal, but some are more equal than others?

I believe such people should be jailed for spreading falsehoods that actually harm people.

 

[Estro Felino]

I believe such people should be jailed for spreading falsehoods that actually harm people.

Nobody has explained to me the detail about alleged Anti-Semitism yet.
How are his theories "anti-Semitic"?

 

[Nakosis]

Ah,, so you are saying that it was not thinking. Thank you for clearing that up.

Yes, not when you let the government do it for you.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, not when you let the government do it for you.

I think that 1984 is their Bible.
Thought police...what a wonderful word...

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Knowingly promoting lies should be illegal. And should remove ones right to free speech on a public platform for a period of time, specified by a court.

Lies and disinformation are an abuse of free speech.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, not when you let the government do it for you.

No, watch the false accusations. The guy who was rightfully rejected does not think. Have you ever tried to apply reason when it came to the sort of claims that he makes? If so you would have been rolling on the floor with laughter at some of his beliefs.

 

[Estro Felino]

Knowingly promoting lies should be illegal. And should remove ones right to free speech on a public platform for a period of time, specified by a court.

Lies and disinformation are an abuse of free speech.

In my country there is no limitation, fortunately.
In my country anyone is entitled to formulate theories, no matter how arduous they are because we have had the French Enlightenment (Montesquieu, Rousseau, Voltaire), the German Enlightenment (Lessing, Kant) and the Italian Enlightenment (Vico, Filangieri, Beccaria) who have molded the notion of law according to jusnaturalism and not according the philosophy of cognitive bias that the Left would like to impose on us.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, watch the false accusations. The guy who was rightfully rejected does not think. Have you ever tried to apply reason when it came to the sort of claims that he makes? If so you would have been rolling on the floor with laughter at some of his beliefs.

So far, nobody has explained to me why he is not allowed to speak, yet.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To point this out:
any EU provision that violates the first 12 articles of our Constitution is not applicable in our country.
So, Icke can speak in our country, and nobody can prevent him from doing that.

So non-EU citizens are entitled to enter Italy?

 

[Estro Felino]

So non-EU citizens are entitled to enter Italy?

With a Visa, of course

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nobody has explained to me the detail about alleged Anti-Semitism yet.
How are his theories "anti-Semitic"?

His main conspiracy theory that the world is run by a secret cabal of Jewish lizard-people.

Except for the weird "lizard" angle, it's pretty much the stock "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"-type antisemitic conspiracy theory about Jews undermining democracy and exerting evil, secret control on the world.