Easter/Lent (Poll for a nagging question)

[Unveiled Artist]

(You don't have to read all of it. I just made the poll since it gets to the point of what I'm asking)

I keep reading that Lent and Easter are pagan holidays. This is my general understanding of what lent and Easter means in regards to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.

Lent is just the preparation of celebrating the resurrection of Christ.

When Catholics (and some protestant denominations) prepare for Christ's resurrection, they are reflecting on how Christ saved them. They may be thinking of them being resurrected like Christ and having new bodies when they reach heaven. They may be recalling when they first accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

As they reflect, they want to mirror a lot of the Jewish customs such as retraining from eating meat. What I learned is that Christians (all) see the Spirit in them higher than that of the flesh. Many show this by spending a full day of Sunday out of their personal time to worship God. A lot of people take time from themselves to spend it with family in prayer.

Individual fasting is saying "my body is not as important as my spirit." Since food nourishes the body, to restrain from food is expressing this value.

How is this against scripture? To express to God that you see Him rather than your flesh?

Easter day has came (coincidentally, it's own a pagan holiday, no less) and you are thinking about Christ. You have prepared yourself in prayer, in fasting, and in deed (as Jesus) and you are ready to celebrate His resurrection.

In celebration we do not need flowers, incense, roses, and pictures and such. The celebration of His resurrection is the same resurrection that Christians will have. To not celebrate it is like saying out of all these days out of the year, "this part of the year" I don't care to honor your rising. Let me forget about you until it's not a holiday anymore. I'll feel better since it isn't officially pagan.

Celebration--taking the time to honor Christ's resurrection in you. Expressing that thanks through prayer and so have you--is what Christ wants His followers to do. Not forget about Him.

How is this against scripture? Celebrating your resurrection in Christ?

Is it what Catholics do to celebrate Christ on Easter? Light candles? Incense? Repentance? Prayer? Communion?

Or is it the celebration (the meaningy and inner expression) itself?

That makes anti catholics see paganism on the day Christ resurrected.

 

[metis]

Without actually answering your questions, let me just mention that "borrowing" ideas from another religion/culture is commonplace, and this is true within Judaism and Christianity as well. Most of the scriptural names for God can be traced back to Sumerian beliefs. Some holidays, such as Passover and Christmas, started out commemorating different events but got changed to reflect Jewish and/or Christian beliefs.

For some to claim that because a name of God or a holiday has "pagan" roots and that this somehow miraculously disqualifies itself is silly. Cultures learn from one another, as they should. The U.S. is not only a melting-pot of different cultures, it's also a melting-pot of different religious traditions. We learn from one another, and that makes more sense to me than burrowing our heads in the sand and pretending that other people and other ideas don't really exist.

There simply is no "pure" religion that somehow started out entirely on its own and not being influenced by other religious traditions, but some just can't seem to accept that basic fact.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I get that. I dont see how anti catholics conclude that lent and easter are pagan "unless" they are talking about "how" Catholics celebrate Christ resurrrection not the "purpose" behind the two holidays and practice themselves regardless of its origins.

Without actually answering your questions, let me just mention that "borrowing" ideas from another religion/culture is commonplace, and this is true within Judaism and Christianity as well. Most of the scriptural names for God can be traced back to Sumerian beliefs. Some holidays, such as Passover and Christmas, started out commemorating different events but got changed to reflect Jewish and/or Christian beliefs.

For some to claim that because a name of God or a holiday has "pagan" roots and that this somehow miraculously disqualifies itself is silly. Cultures learn from one another, as they should. The U.S. is not only a melting-pot of different cultures, it's also a melting-pot of different religious traditions. We learn from one another, and that makes more sense to me than burrowing our heads in the sand and pretending that other people and other ideas don't really exist.

There simply is no "pure" religion that somehow started out entirely on its own and not being influenced by other religious traditions, but some just can't seem to accept that basic fact.

 

[metis]

I get that. I dont see how anti catholics conclude that lent and easter are pagan "unless" they are talking about "how" Catholics celebrate Christ resurrrection not the "purpose" behind the two holidays and practice themselves regardless of its origins.

Ya, my post was more meant for certain others as both you and I are pretty much on the same page even if we do come from different angles.

 

[kjw47]

I get that. I dont see how anti catholics conclude that lent and easter are pagan "unless" they are talking about "how" Catholics celebrate Christ resurrrection not the "purpose" behind the two holidays and practice themselves regardless of its origins.

The real teachers of Jesus warn the flock of the pagan additives the world added( easter bunny--colored eggs)-- the rites of spring celebrated by pagans with those two pagan things gravitated into Easter--the false Gods Astarte and Ishtar were involved in that pagan rites of spring festival. Even the catholic encyclopedia warns of that( 1913,volume V,pg 227)-- and the book--the two babylons by Alexander Hislop--the hot cross buns,dyed eggs--Chaldean rites of spring.
Every pagan practice is straight off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21)

encyclopedias as well teach of the pagan additives--even in Christmas.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm a little hard of understand (no pun intended). I tried to separate the questions; so, you don't have to try to find them in paragraphs. Thank you for your respectful tone. (Funny how we can tell these things online)
--
What does the Easter bunny and colored eggs represent from a pagan point of view?

Also, colored eggs to a "pagan" and colored eggs today have completely different meanings (I'm taking a guess). So is it the practice of coloring the eggs itself that is a problem or are people against Catholic teachings saying both the meaning of colored eggs in pagan days and today mean the same?

Who are Astarte and Ishtar?

In the Easter Vigil, where are these practices (colored eggs and Easter bunny) at; and how does the Church represent these two Gods in their Easter Vigil?
--
I can't find anything in Lent and Easter Vigil that suggest paganism. I just see a lot of tradition such as colors of robes, how to present the Gospel to the congregation, choir, standing up and clapping in obviation (sp?) to welcome new-be Christians to Christ.

Unless anti-Catholics are against structured sermons (as in Jewish Customs) and feel their should be some spontaneity in preaching as in the Pentecostal and they reject to Roman influence in the Church, I have no idea how it is wrong and even more so against scripture.

I'm completely missing something.

The real teachers of Jesus warn the flock of the pagan additives the world added( easter bunny--colored eggs)-- the rites of spring celebrated by pagans with those two pagan things gravitated into Easter--the false Gods Astarte and Ishtar were involved in that pagan rites of spring festival. Even the catholic encyclopedia warns of that( 1913,volume V,pg 227)-- and the book--the two babylons by Alexander Hislop--the hot cross buns,dyed eggs--Chaldean rites of spring.
Every pagan practice is straight off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21)

encyclopedias as well teach of the pagan additives--even in Christmas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have not found any buyer for my theory, but here is what it is. Christmas is celebration of Vernal Equinox at a wrong time. Eight thousand years ago, Indo-Aryans understood the phenomenon of 'precession of equinoxes' and since then have made corrections in their calendar. The Iranian Aryans, the Ionians and other West-going Aryans did not do so. So, the vernal equinox slipped by three months from March to December (it changes by one month in 2000 years, a complete cycle taking some 25,000 years). RigVeda mentions this by giving 'Aditi' the station of 'mother of Gods'. It variously says that 'Aditi' is 'two-monthed' (the beginning and the end of the sacrificial year) and that 'Aditi' is the 'sacrificial year'. The sun rose on the day of vernal equinox at that time in the asterism of Castor and Pollux (Punarvasu).

Indo-Aryans moved the asterism on the day of vernal equinox from Castor and Pollux to Orion (Mrigashiras), from Orion to Pleiades (Krittika), from Pleiades to beta and gamma Areitis (Ashwini). We now have to move it to Zeta Piscium (Revati). These changes never came easily, there were controversies every time.
Nakshatra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kjw47]

I'm a little hard of understand (no pun intended). I tried to separate the questions; so, you don't have to try to find them in paragraphs. Thank you for your respectful tone. (Funny how we can tell these things online)
--
What does the Easter bunny and colored eggs represent from a pagan point of view?

Also, colored eggs to a "pagan" and colored eggs today have completely different meanings (I'm taking a guess). So is it the practice of coloring the eggs itself that is a problem or are people against Catholic teachings saying both the meaning of colored eggs in pagan days and today mean the same?

Who are Astarte and Ishtar?

In the Easter Vigil, where are these practices (colored eggs and Easter bunny) at; and how does the Church represent these two Gods in their Easter Vigil?
--
I can't find anything in Lent and Easter Vigil that suggest paganism. I just see a lot of tradition such as colors of robes, how to present the Gospel to the congregation, choir, standing up and clapping in obviation (sp?) to welcome new-be Christians to Christ.

Unless anti-Catholics are against structured sermons (as in Jewish Customs) and feel their should be some spontaneity in preaching as in the Pentecostal and they reject to Roman influence in the Church, I have no idea how it is wrong and even more so against scripture.

I'm completely missing something.

Astarte is the greek name for the Babylonian goddess Ishtar.

I didn't say the church represented colored eggs and easter bunny, the world Jesus said to be no part of practice these pagan additives.--but they fail to warn the flock that they were pagan additives from centuries ago--Gods word says--one cannot partake of the table of God and the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21)-- they were false pagan celebration additives--how God views it still.

this is how satan deceives the majority--through false teachers-2Thess 2:3--2Cor 11:12-15---Jesus' real teachers warn against such things--it is not worth risking entering into Gods kingdom for such things.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am missing the connection between the practices themselves and "paganism" in biblical definitions.

Is it because people put these practices over God?

Do the practitioners today become pagans themselves by practicing pagan originated rituals like coloring eggs and Easter bunnies?

Astarte is the greek name for the Babylonian goddess Ishtar.

I didn't say the church represented colored eggs and easter bunny, the world Jesus said to be no part of practice these pagan additives.--but they fail to warn the flock that they were pagan additives from centuries ago--Gods word says--one cannot partake of the table of God and the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21)-- they were false pagan celebration additives--how God views it still.

this is how satan deceives the majority--through false teachers-2Thess 2:3--2Cor 11:12-15---Jesus' real teachers warn against such things--it is not worth risking entering into Gods kingdom for such things.

Can we discuss an simple example like praying with beads in the Christian faith; so, I understand what you're saying?

Many pagans and other cultures use beads when they pray. It is (by some) considered a pagan practice. (Pagan as in non-Christian?)

If I were a active Christian and held beads in my hand while saying the Lord's prayer, would God consider that wrong?

If so, how does holding the beads correlate with the authenticity of my prayers to God?

How does He see beads as something evil when I see them as just carved wooden circles stringed together?

Since I would be practicing pagan rituals by holding beads, how does that make my prayers invalid?
--
Experience:

I ride the bus once a week to work. The bus driver sometimes evangelize to me about God. He is a minister. He was also born and raised in another country where what he calls pagan practices where done. One day, I had beads around my wrists. I got them from a tourist shop where they sold Buddhist jewelry. However, for it to be "Buddhist" in nature, normally a priest from the temple blesses the beads in front of the Buddha. In this case, I just got it over the counter. The driver pulls me aside and asked me what where the beads I wore. I told him they were Buddhist beads. He said that is the mark of the devil. He says that it is dangerous because anyone could put spirits in those beads and that could be why I was going blind (have eye problems lately).

Question: I never prayed with these beads, never got them blessed, they just sit with the rest of my jewelry with necklaces and rings. How are they, in itself, (like pagan practices) against scripture?

-
Likewise, I have a Santeria shop near where I live. In the Santeria (Mixed Catholicism/African faith-Lucumi) you have different spirits or Orishas. Each Orisha governs and controls different parts of nature. And like the Holy Spirit from Christ, depending on which Orisha owns your head (or one that you are picked with by divination), is which Orisha's ashe (blessings is the best I can describe it) you will receive. By building a relationship with your Orisha, you will receive more blessings.

Sorry, to the point. Once you receive your Orisha you also receive a statue of him or her. You place that statute in front of your home (as they did in the door of their store). You feed him with offerings because through ritual, that statue now has the spirit of the Orisha in him or her. Now you please this Orisha.

This is considered paganism according to Christianity yet they do not see themselves as pagans and the managers know nothing about Christianity.
--
Point: Now I see why Christianity calls Santeros and Lucumi pagans. I do not see their practices wrong in themselves.

I know they are against scripture. I know why. I don't know how. If I knew how then I can compare it to scripture and say "Oh, I get it!" and will discard it. However, I personally don't stop something unless I am harmed by it or someone else is harmed by it. There has to be a logical correlation between why something is sinful or harmful to the spirit for me to see how it is against scripture.

Scripture has a lot of commands that are not explained. I can see why a lot of people don't follow Christianity; there is a missing element in doing what God says and finding the logic (both outer and inner since they go hand in hand) behind it. Of course, a Christian cannot know God's mind. However, I would think God would know children do not learn without reasoning behind their improper actions. Punishing them without educating them as well defeats the purpose of wanting to have a relationship with the parent or God. There is no building in the relationship just a follow because it makes me feel spiritually good.

Anyway, I'm rambling. You don't have to read the whole thing. Just saying.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I kind of just want a good answer through my poll. It would make it a lot simpler to see how many people are more concerned with the practices themselves or are they stuck on the meaning behind them.

 

[kjw47]

I am missing the connection between the practices themselves and "paganism" in biblical definitions.

Is it because people put these practices over God?

Do the practitioners today become pagans themselves by practicing pagan originated rituals like coloring eggs and Easter bunnies?



Can we discuss an simple example like praying with beads in the Christian faith; so, I understand what you're saying?

Many pagans and other cultures use beads when they pray. It is (by some) considered a pagan practice. (Pagan as in non-Christian?)

If I were a active Christian and held beads in my hand while saying the Lord's prayer, would God consider that wrong?

If so, how does holding the beads correlate with the authenticity of my prayers to God?

How does He see beads as something evil when I see them as just carved wooden circles stringed together?

Since I would be practicing pagan rituals by holding beads, how does that make my prayers invalid?
--
Experience:

I ride the bus once a week to work. The bus driver sometimes evangelize to me about God. He is a minister. He was also born and raised in another country where what he calls pagan practices where done. One day, I had beads around my wrists. I got them from a tourist shop where they sold Buddhist jewelry. However, for it to be "Buddhist" in nature, normally a priest from the temple blesses the beads in front of the Buddha. In this case, I just got it over the counter. The driver pulls me aside and asked me what where the beads I wore. I told him they were Buddhist beads. He said that is the mark of the devil. He says that it is dangerous because anyone could put spirits in those beads and that could be why I was going blind (have eye problems lately).

Question: I never prayed with these beads, never got them blessed, they just sit with the rest of my jewelry with necklaces and rings. How are they, in itself, (like pagan practices) against scripture?

-
Likewise, I have a Santeria shop near where I live. In the Santeria (Mixed Catholicism/African faith-Lucumi) you have different spirits or Orishas. Each Orisha governs and controls different parts of nature. And like the Holy Spirit from Christ, depending on which Orisha owns your head (or one that you are picked with by divination), is which Orisha's ashe (blessings is the best I can describe it) you will receive. By building a relationship with your Orisha, you will receive more blessings.

Sorry, to the point. Once you receive your Orisha you also receive a statue of him or her. You place that statute in front of your home (as they did in the door of their store). You feed him with offerings because through ritual, that statue now has the spirit of the Orisha in him or her. Now you please this Orisha.

This is considered paganism according to Christianity yet they do not see themselves as pagans and the managers know nothing about Christianity.
--
Point: Now I see why Christianity calls Santeros and Lucumi pagans. I do not see their practices wrong in themselves.

I know they are against scripture. I know why. I don't know how. If I knew how then I can compare it to scripture and say "Oh, I get it!" and will discard it. However, I personally don't stop something unless I am harmed by it or someone else is harmed by it. There has to be a logical correlation between why something is sinful or harmful to the spirit for me to see how it is against scripture.

Scripture has a lot of commands that are not explained. I can see why a lot of people don't follow Christianity; there is a missing element in doing what God says and finding the logic (both outer and inner since they go hand in hand) behind it. Of course, a Christian cannot know God's mind. However, I would think God would know children do not learn without reasoning behind their improper actions. Punishing them without educating them as well defeats the purpose of wanting to have a relationship with the parent or God. There is no building in the relationship just a follow because it makes me feel spiritually good.

Anyway, I'm rambling. You don't have to read the whole thing. Just saying.

In the ot it condemns the use of icons-- I would say a little metal cross is an icon---- God hates all false religions--they are foretold to be annihilated off of Gods earth, I believe this event is coming soon.
Satan has mislead the majority all throughout the bible, it hasn't changed.
God never had more than a single religion--ot= Israelites(Judaism)--Jesus started a single religion--not many
Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided will not stand.
Satan transforms into an angel of light(2Cor 11:12-15) this is how he misleads--he uses love,sharing anything good to deceive one, alls he has to do is get one to partake off the table of demons and they are his in Gods view(1Cor 10:21)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand God hates icons. I guess he feels people are using it to depict Him. Which in some cases is wrong.

My question is how (not why) do pagan practices, say icons and beads (in themselves) make them against scripture?

Is it the items themselves?

Is it the peoples' intentions when they use the icons? (Say beads for jewelry are not a sin; beads for prayer is) same beads mind you?

Do beads and icons make someone pagan?

In the ot it condemns the use of icons-- I would say a little metal cross is an icon---- God hates all false religions--they are foretold to be annihilated off of Gods earth, I believe this event is coming soon.
Satan has mislead the majority all throughout the bible, it hasn't changed.
God never had more than a single religion--ot= Israelites(Judaism)--Jesus started a single religion--not many
Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided will not stand.
Satan transforms into an angel of light(2Cor 11:12-15) this is how he misleads--he uses love,sharing anything good to deceive one, alls he has to do is get one to partake off the table of demons and they are his in Gods view(1Cor 10:21)

 

[kjw47]

I understand God hates icons. I guess he feels people are using it to depict Him. Which in some cases is wrong.

My question is how (not why) do pagan practices, say icons and beads (in themselves) make them against scripture?

Is it the items themselves?

Is it the peoples' intentions when they use the icons? (Say beads for jewelry are not a sin; beads for prayer is) same beads mind you?

Do beads and icons make someone pagan?

If they are being used against Gods will, it just makes one a opposer to Gods will. Most peoples intentions are good, its the underlying intentions of satans that may be unseen that are involved that God dislikes.
Here at Matt 7:21-23--we find only those who live to do Gods will, get to enter his kingdom-- I would say the many Jesus is speaking of here are convinced they have a great love for Jesus to do powerful works, exorcisms,and prophecying in his name and believe they are saved. But Jesus tells them he never even knew them. because they are mislead by false teachers into partaking off the table of demons( worker of iniquity( lawlessness) = a practicer of sin. As well in Rev Jesus tells the Laodecians--per-se--if one is sitting on the fence( partaking of both tables) he will vomit them out.

Jesus taught everyone Gods will in one statement---Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance from God( OT-NT)--one studies Gods word to learn and apply every utterance. As well Jesus' real teachers warn the flock of the contents of the table of demons.

 

[lovemuffin]

I understand God hates icons.

But Christ is the "icon of the invisible God" (ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου -- Col 1:15)

It seems like it's important to mention that in context, Exodus 20 suggests that what is not acceptable is making a "graven image" in order to worship it (latreia - the service of worship), rather than being an absolute injunction. After all, the ark of the covenant had cherubim depicted, and the entirety of its construction is iconic in the sense that (for example) eastern orthodox use the word "icon".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

True. I dont see any Catholic worshiping their icons but Ibam told otherwise. Was trying to find the logic from an anti catholic point of view

But Christ is the "icon of the invisible God" (ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου -- Col 1:15)

It seems like it's important to mention that in context, Exodus 20 suggests that what is not acceptable is making a "graven image" in order to worship it (latreia - the service of worship), rather than being an absolute injunction. After all, the ark of the covenant had cherubim depicted, and the entirety of its construction is iconic in the sense that (for example) eastern orthodox use the word "icon".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is "why" God considers it wrong. Im asking how. Youre telling me "two and two is four because God said so...here is the proof" i am asking you "how" did two and two equal for regardless if God said the answer is right and wrong.

If they are being used against Gods will, it just makes one a opposer to Gods will. Most peoples intentions are good, its the underlying intentions of satans that may be unseen that are involved that God dislikes.
Here at Matt 7:21-23--we find only those who live to do Gods will, get to enter his kingdom-- I would say the many Jesus is speaking of here are convinced they have a great love for Jesus to do powerful works, exorcisms,and prophecying in his name and believe they are saved. But Jesus tells them he never even knew them. because they are mislead by false teachers into partaking off the table of demons( worker of iniquity( lawlessness) = a practicer of sin. As well in Rev Jesus tells the Laodecians--per-se--if one is sitting on the fence( partaking of both tables) he will vomit them out.

Jesus taught everyone Gods will in one statement---Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance from God( OT-NT)--one studies Gods word to learn and apply every utterance. As well Jesus' real teachers warn the flock of the contents of the table of demons.

 

[metis]

"Graven image" is never defined in Torah, and there's been numerous takes on what it might mean. What most observant Jews will say is that we should not own or possess a three-dimensional figure of a human or animal. Some others will say it's OK to have them but not OK to worship or venerate them.

 

[kjw47]

True. I dont see any Catholic worshiping their icons but Ibam told otherwise. Was trying to find the logic from an anti catholic point of view

They bow down to a hard carved graven image of Jesus on a wooden cross---Jesus is king on a throne in heaven, he is not in any carved image. Many kiss the little metal cross--it is just an object--it can do nothing. What lives in ones heart is what gets something accomplished with God. that and meaningful prayer.
And there is 0 proof in all of creation that Jesus died on a cross--- the greek word stauros--translates--an upright pole or stake--trinity translations translated it as cross.
A cross is a pagan( torture and death) implement--I believe that Gods son would never use the such as the front of his religion. He represents love,peace,unity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's the problem and debate right there. That is completely false. Every culture has it's own intensity of venerating Christ--and Christ only. A lot of Americans do not kiss a statue while other people in Latin Countries do. It has nothing to do with the faith itself.

The problem is that outsiders think that by kissing statues and crosses these people are thinking the Jesus statue IS Jesus. That's pomptuous. However you spell it. I don't see the connection whatsoever.

They bow down to a hard carved graven image of Jesus on a wooden cross---Jesus is king on a throne in heaven, he is not in any carved image. Many kiss the little metal cross--it is just an object--it can do nothing. What lives in ones heart is what gets something accomplished with God. that and meaningful prayer.
And there is 0 proof in all of creation that Jesus died on a cross--- the greek word stauros--translates--an upright pole or stake--trinity translations translated it as cross.
A cross is a pagan( torture and death) implement--I believe that Gods son would never use the such as the front of his religion. He represents love,peace,unity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have a question:

Is it contradictory for someone to worship an object they believe is inanimate and have no power to do anything for them?

Wouldn't that defeat the point of them worshiping the object if they don't believe it will do anything for them by worshiping it?