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Eastern meditation is different from 'Christian contemplation'.

Is Christian contemplation the same as the other eastern meditation practices?


  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
None of the actual descriptions of Christian contemplation, a type of prayer, equate to eastern meditation practices that are commonly being ''equated'' to it. Yes, there might be religious //non-xian//, meditation, which is similar, but that is obviously not ''Christian'', as well.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I voted yes and no--yes, because a lot of the basic concepts and even the basic techniques behind the practices are the same (concentrating on clearing your mind, ignoring thoughts, praying, maybe chanting, focusing on your breathing, maybe some visualizations or objects of focus to help facilitate things, etc.) and no, because obviously a lot of the actual content and ultimate goals differ (Buddhist sutras are different than the Jesus Prayer, Nirvana is not theosis, and becoming one with Brahma is not Heaven).

Oh, and Canadian bacon is a no-go on my pizza. I like REAL bacon, thank you kindly.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
None of the actual descriptions of Christian contemplation, a type of prayer, equate to eastern meditation practices that are commonly being ''equated'' to it. Yes, there might be religious //non-xian//, meditation, which is similar, but that is obviously not ''Christian'', as well.
Hi qkonn,

Thanks for participating in my thread about Contemplative Christianity. Kindly try to check the Transcendental Meditation, their practice of meditation are similar with the contemplative practices.

Contemplative Christianity is known as the emerging church. They are not in line with the evangelical practice of contemplative. The word Christian is very broad, a lot of christian groups claimed they are Christian.

Thanks
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I voted yes because I think Christian contemplative/ emergent practices are no different than Eastern meditative practices, other than "Christian" terminology has been applied.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
No,

There are specific techniques taught in eastern meditation. Christian meditation is more prayer? Establishing communion with the Holy Spirit? I suppose I'm not sure, but if they are doing eastern forms of meditation then it's not "Christian".
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Can someone tell me what Christian contemplation is?

Sure thing...

"Contemplation" from the Latin contemplatio is a Catholic term for the highest degree of mystical prayer (the Eastern Orthodox refer to the same phenomenon using the Greek word theoria). The most basic definition one could give is that contemplation is a form of prayer which is non-discursive in nature and consists of a "simple" gaze fixed upon a non-distinct awareness of God without the use of mental images, ideas, representations or sense-perceptions.

There is acquired contemplation and infused contemplation. Acquired contemplation is the first "phase" of the prayer, which one would naturally enter into following meditation (which in Catholicism refers to discursive prayer). It can be attained through human effort aided by grace. Infused contemplation, is the most perfect and it cannot be attained by human effort, rather only God when He finds us ready (normally through meditation and acquired contemplation).

Here is a quote from an academic book written in the early 1920s by a Benedictine monk, giving a good definition of the "practice" of contemplation:
"...The preliminary condition for contemplation is that the mind has been through a process of spiritual training, whereby it is able to empty itself of images and sense perceptions...

One sets oneself to pray, say for the regulation half-hour; empties the mind of all images, ideas, concepts - this is commonly done without much difficulty; fixes the soul in loving attention on God, without express or distinct idea of Him, beyond the vague incomprehensible idea of His Godhead; makes no particular acts, but a general actuation of love, without sensible devotion or emotional feeling: a sort of blind and dumb act of the will or of the soul itself. This lasts a few minutes, then fades away, and either a blank or distractions supervene: when recognized, the will again fixes the mind in loving attention for a time. The period of prayer is thus passed in such alternations, a few minutes each, the bouts of loving attention being, in favourable conditions, more prolonged than the bouts of distraction..."

- Dom Cuthbert Butler, Benedictine Monk in "Western Mysticism: Augustine, Gregory, and Bernard on Contemplation and the Contemplative Life" (1922), p69

Here is a description from Pope St. Gregory the Great:

"...[In contemplation] the mind must first have learned to shut out from its eyes all the phantasmata [mental images or representations of objects] of earthly and heavenly images, and to spurn and tread underfoot whatever presents itself to its thought from sight, from hearing, from smell, from bodily touch or taste, so that it may seek interiorly as it is without these sensations...If our mind be distracted by earthly images, it can no way consider itself or the nature of the soul, because by how many thoughts it is led about, by so many obstacles it is blinded. And so the first step is that it collect itself within itself (recollection); the second, that it consider what its nature is so collected (introversion); the third, that it rise above itself and yield itself to the intent contemplation of its invisible Maker (contemplation). But the mind cannot recollect itself unless it has first learned to repress all phantasmata of earthly images, and to reject and spurn whatever sense impressions present themselves to its thoughts, in order that it may seek itself within as it is without these sensations. So they are all to be driven away from the mind's eye, in order that the soul may see itself as it was made...When the soul raised up to itself understands its own measure, and recognizes that it transcends all bodily things, and from the knowledge of itself passes to the knowledge of its Maker, what is this, except to see the door opposite the door?..."

- Pope. St Gregory the Great (Homilies on Ezechiel II.V.), published in AD 593

This description by Pseudo-Dionysius is a classic in the history of Christian Spirituality:

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/MysticalTheology.html

"...Supernal Triad, Deity above all essence, knowledge and goodness; Guide of Christians to Divine Wisdom; direct our path to the ultimate summit of your mystical knowledge, most incomprehensible, most luminous and most exalted, where the pure, absolute and immutable mysteries of theology are veiled in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their Darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories surpassing all beauty.

Let this be my prayer; but do, dear Timothy, in the diligent exercise of mystical contemplation, leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and nonbeing, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with it that transcends all being and all knowledge. For by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and of all things you may be borne on high, through pure and entire self-abnegation, into the superessential Radiance of the Divine Darkness. But these things are not to be disclosed to the uninitiated, by whom I mean those attached to the objects of human thought, and who believe there is no superessential Reality beyond, and who imagine that by their own understanding they know it that has made Darkness Its secret place...

Its incomprehensible Presence is manifested upon those heights of Its Holy Places; that then It breaks forth, even from that which is seen and that which sees, and plunges the mystic into the Darkness of Unknowing, whence all perfection of understanding is excluded, and he is enwrapped in that which is altogether intangible, wholly absorbed in it that is beyond all, and in none else (whether himself or another); and through the inactivity of all his reasoning powers is united by his highest faculty to it that is wholly unknowable; thus by knowing nothing he knows That which is beyond his knowledge..."

- Pseudo-Dionysius, Mystical Theology (5th-6th century)

 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Contemplative Christianity is known as the emerging church. They are not in line with the evangelical practice of contemplative. The word Christian is very broad, a lot of christian groups claimed they are Christian.

As I (probably insufficiently) outlined here, contemplative traditions in Christianity are quite ancient, in fact being at least 1000 years older than the evangelical tradition. Referring to it as "the emerging church" seems like a rather dubious and probably pejorative label, and is certainly not one that would be used by (for example) Catholic or Orthodox Christians.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Hi qkonn,

Thanks for participating in my thread about Contemplative Christianity. Kindly try to check the Transcendental Meditation, their practice of meditation are similar with the contemplative practices.

Contemplative Christianity is known as the emerging church. They are not in line with the evangelical practice of contemplative. The word Christian is very broad, a lot of christian groups claimed they are Christian.

Thanks
Google is your friend. Contemplative Christianity has NOTHING to do with the Emergent Church Movement.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
As I (probably insufficiently) outlined here, contemplative traditions in Christianity are quite ancient, in fact being at least 1000 years older than the evangelical tradition. Referring to it as "the emerging church" seems like a rather dubious and probably pejorative label, and is certainly not one that would be used by (for example) Catholic or Orthodox Christians.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism

Do we know how it originated? Could it have been introduced through Eastern influence?
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Google is your friend. Contemplative Christianity has NOTHING to do with the Emergent Church Movement.
Sure thing...

"Contemplation" from the Latin contemplatio is a Catholic term for the highest degree of mystical prayer (the Eastern Orthodox refer to the same phenomenon using the Greek word theoria). The most basic definition one could give is that contemplation is a form of prayer which is non-discursive in nature and consists of a "simple" gaze fixed upon a non-distinct awareness of God without the use of mental images, ideas, representations or sense-perceptions.

There is acquired contemplation and infused contemplation. Acquired contemplation is the first "phase" of the prayer, which one would naturally enter into following meditation (which in Catholicism refers to discursive prayer). It can be attained through human effort aided by grace. Infused contemplation, is the most perfect and it cannot be attained by human effort, rather only God when He finds us ready (normally through meditation and acquired contemplation).

Here is a quote from an academic book written in the early 1920s by a Benedictine monk, giving a good definition of the "practice" of contemplation:
"...The preliminary condition for contemplation is that the mind has been through a process of spiritual training, whereby it is able to empty itself of images and sense perceptions...

One sets oneself to pray, say for the regulation half-hour; empties the mind of all images, ideas, concepts - this is commonly done without much difficulty; fixes the soul in loving attention on God, without express or distinct idea of Him, beyond the vague incomprehensible idea of His Godhead; makes no particular acts, but a general actuation of love, without sensible devotion or emotional feeling: a sort of blind and dumb act of the will or of the soul itself. This lasts a few minutes, then fades away, and either a blank or distractions supervene: when recognized, the will again fixes the mind in loving attention for a time. The period of prayer is thus passed in such alternations, a few minutes each, the bouts of loving attention being, in favourable conditions, more prolonged than the bouts of distraction..."

- Dom Cuthbert Butler, Benedictine Monk in "Western Mysticism: Augustine, Gregory, and Bernard on Contemplation and the Contemplative Life" (1922), p69

Here is a description from Pope St. Gregory the Great:

"...[In contemplation] the mind must first have learned to shut out from its eyes all the phantasmata [mental images or representations of objects] of earthly and heavenly images, and to spurn and tread underfoot whatever presents itself to its thought from sight, from hearing, from smell, from bodily touch or taste, so that it may seek interiorly as it is without these sensations...If our mind be distracted by earthly images, it can no way consider itself or the nature of the soul, because by how many thoughts it is led about, by so many obstacles it is blinded. And so the first step is that it collect itself within itself (recollection); the second, that it consider what its nature is so collected (introversion); the third, that it rise above itself and yield itself to the intent contemplation of its invisible Maker (contemplation). But the mind cannot recollect itself unless it has first learned to repress all phantasmata of earthly images, and to reject and spurn whatever sense impressions present themselves to its thoughts, in order that it may seek itself within as it is without these sensations. So they are all to be driven away from the mind's eye, in order that the soul may see itself as it was made...When the soul raised up to itself understands its own measure, and recognizes that it transcends all bodily things, and from the knowledge of itself passes to the knowledge of its Maker, what is this, except to see the door opposite the door?..."

- Pope. St Gregory the Great (Homilies on Ezechiel II.V.), published in AD 593

This description by Pseudo-Dionysius is a classic in the history of Christian Spirituality:

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/MysticalTheology.html

"...Supernal Triad, Deity above all essence, knowledge and goodness; Guide of Christians to Divine Wisdom; direct our path to the ultimate summit of your mystical knowledge, most incomprehensible, most luminous and most exalted, where the pure, absolute and immutable mysteries of theology are veiled in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their Darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories surpassing all beauty.

Let this be my prayer; but do, dear Timothy, in the diligent exercise of mystical contemplation, leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and nonbeing, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with it that transcends all being and all knowledge. For by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and of all things you may be borne on high, through pure and entire self-abnegation, into the superessential Radiance of the Divine Darkness. But these things are not to be disclosed to the uninitiated, by whom I mean those attached to the objects of human thought, and who believe there is no superessential Reality beyond, and who imagine that by their own understanding they know it that has made Darkness Its secret place...

Its incomprehensible Presence is manifested upon those heights of Its Holy Places; that then It breaks forth, even from that which is seen and that which sees, and plunges the mystic into the Darkness of Unknowing, whence all perfection of understanding is excluded, and he is enwrapped in that which is altogether intangible, wholly absorbed in it that is beyond all, and in none else (whether himself or another); and through the inactivity of all his reasoning powers is united by his highest faculty to it that is wholly unknowable; thus by knowing nothing he knows That which is beyond his knowledge..."

- Pseudo-Dionysius, Mystical Theology (5th-6th century)

It certainly seems very similar to Eastern meditation. I would say it is one form of meditation as there are a vast many methods of meditation.By Madhuri

Hi Vouthon,

I think I don't need to prove that Eastern Meditation and Contemplative Christianity (Catholicism) are very similar. I believe with Ms. Madhuri since she has the authority as Bhagavad Gita. How come?

Thanks
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Do we know how it originated? Could it have been introduced through Eastern influence?

Hi Madhuri,

Contemplative approaches to scripture and the Christian life first developed, in a form that we would now recognise as such, in the second century AD. However they ultimately derive from the Sacred Apostolic Tradition of the Church: the second century era Catholic authorities on the contemplative life firmly maintain that they are merely transmitting earlier traditions from the Apostles that had been handed down via the teaching authority of the bishops and in the life of the Church.

An example would be the early church father St. Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-216) who in Chapter 10 of his Stromata refers to "some things delivered unwritten" from the apostles concerning:

"....mystic contemplation (he epoptike theoria); for this is the flesh and the blood of the Word, that is, the comprehension of the divine power and essence...For the knowledge of the divine essence is the meat and drink of the divine Word...Now the sacrifice which is acceptable to God is unswerving abstraction from the body and its passions...For he who neither employs his eyes in the exercise of thought, nor draws aught from his senses, but with pure mind itself applies to objects, [this man] practises the true philosophy...[Christ] Himself taught the apostles during His presence; then it follows that the knowledge...which is sure and reliable, as being imparted and revealed by the Son of God, is wisdom. And if, too, the end of the wise man is contemplation, that of those who are still philosophers aims at it, but never attains it....And the knowledge itself is that which has descended by transmission to a few, having been imparted unwritten by the apostles. Hence, then, knowledge or wisdom ought to be exercised up to the eternal and unchangeable habit of contemplation..."


It is thus part of the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

9. Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.

Contemplation then takes on its first 'systematic' manifestation in the third century AD with the 'Desert Fathers' and 'Desert Mothers':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers

The Desert Fathers Orthodox Christian hermits, ascetics, and monks who lived mainly in the Scetes desert of Egypt beginning around the third century AD. The Apophthegmata Patrum is a collection of the writings of some of the early desert monks and nuns, representing the Divine Wisdom they received,[1] still in print as Sayings of the Desert Fathers. The most well known was Anthony the Great, who moved to the desert in 270–271 and became known as both the father and founder of desert monasticism. By the time Anthony died in 356, thousands of monks and nuns had been drawn to living in the desert following Anthony's example — his biographer, Athanasius of Alexandria, wrote that "the desert had become a city."[2] The Desert Fathers had a major influence on the development of Christianity.

The desert monastic communities that grew out of the informal gathering of hermit monks became the model for Christian monasticism. The eastern monastic tradition at Mt. Athos and the western Rule of St. Benedict both were strongly influenced by the traditions that began in the desert. All of the monastic revivals of the Middle Ages looked to the desert for inspiration and guidance. Much of Eastern Christian spirituality, including the Hesychast movement, had its roots in the practices of the Desert Fathers. Even religious renewals such as the German evangelicals and Pietists in Pennsylvania, the Devotio Moderna movement, and the Methodist Revival in England are seen by modern scholars as being influenced by the Desert Fathers.[3]

The Desert Fathers and Mothers were the 'pioneers' of the 'structured', monastic model of the contemplative life that would later come to predominate in the Catholic and Orthodox worlds. They are sort of like the Christian equivalent to the Hindu sages who took to the forests of India in the 7th - 5th centuries BC and authored the Upanishads. They were respectively given the honorific titles of 'Abba' (father) and 'Amma' (mother) for their profound wisdom and holiness.

One of the later Desert Fathers named Abba Evagrius Ponticus (345-399) systematized and harmonized the disparate teachings, sayings and practices of his predecessors into a clear 'system' that became highly influential with later contemplatives. His disciple St. John Cassian was instrumental in the foundation of Western monasticism through his book The Conferences.

Abba Evagrius' structure of the contemplative life as beginning with the "purgative", proceeding to the "illuminative" stage and then concluding with the "contemplative" proper is the same basic tripartite structure that has been employed by all subsequent contemplatives till the present day:

http://timiosprodromos2.blogspot.co.uk/2006/01/tpl-commentary-2.html

What Evagrius is saying is that the mystical ascent has three stages: the practical, the natural and the theological stages. Moreover, he is implying that this mystical ascent is not something apart from Christian dogma but an integral part of it. This is what we mean when we say that Evagrius places his mystical doctrine in a soteriological framework: the mystical ascent is how we work out our salvation; it is not something apart from our program of working out our salvation.

This tripartite division of the mystical life will become forever standard even in the West. There it is known as the purgative, the illuminative and the unitive stages. This terminology corresponds exactly to Evagrius’ basic meaning and can provide us with an interpretation of his terms.The practical life—of the monk—is the purgative stage, and the Treatise on the Practical Life[1] is devoted to it. We shall see as we go on just how Evagrius intends the term.

The natural part is the stage of the natural contemplation of existent things, subdivided into the natural contemplation of such existent things as do not possess mind (nous) and into the natural contemplation of such existent things as do possess mind (nous). The first are rocks and trees and animals; the second are the angels. By the time we have finished, this will have become clear.

The third stage, Theology, is the contemplation of God himself.

What must be understood is that Evagrius is enunciating a detailed program for the accomplishment of the ascetical goal.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Contemplative Christianity is known as the emerging church.
No. It's not. Contemplative Xy has been around since at least the Desert Fathers and Mothers of the 3rd century.
They are not in line with the evangelical practice of contemplative.
The evangelicals are intentionally not in line with the historic church, and have only been around for about 200 years.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
No. It's not. Contemplative Xy has been around since at least the Desert Fathers and Mothers of the 3rd century.

The evangelicals are intentionally not in line with the historic church, and have only been around for about 200 years.

Hi Sojourner,

Then, prove how Desert Fathers and Mothers were very close to Christianity (with Jesus teachings).
Prove to me that evangelicals are not in line with the historic church.

Thanks
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Hi Sojourner,

Then, prove how Desert Fathers and Mothers were very close to the Christianity (with Jesus teachings)?
Prove to me that evangelicals are not in line with the historic church?

Thanks
Posts 8 and 9 have already explained that adequately.

The evangelicals generally eschew the ancient church (RCC and EO). They deny the authority (indeed, do not respect) the Papacy or the Primacy. They use a different canon of scripture. They adhere strongly to sola scriptura -- as you're doing. They generally reject the ancient Tradition, doctrine, and polity of the ancient church. Want more?
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Posts 8 and 9 have already explained that adequately.

The evangelicals generally eschew the ancient church (RCC and EO). They deny the authority (indeed, do not respect) the Papacy or the Primacy. They use a different canon of scripture. They adhere strongly to sola scriptura -- as you're doing. They generally reject the ancient Tradition, doctrine, and polity of the ancient church. Want more?
Hi Sojourner,

Sorry for my unedited message, I'm in rush answering those questions from the other thread. I'll try to look at post 8&9 first before I reply to you.

Thanks
 
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