Eastern meditation is different from 'Christian contemplation'.

[sojourner]

Hi Sojourner,

Sorry for my unedited message, I'm in rush answering those questions from the other thread. I'll try to look at post 8&9 first before I reply to you.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Hi Sojourner,

Early modern meaning
See also: Early modern period


The Appearance of the Holy Spirit before Saint Teresa of Ávila, Peter Paul Rubens
In the sixteenth and seventeenth century mysticism came to be used as a substantive.[25] This shift was linked to a new discourse,[25] in which science and religion were separated.[27]
Luther dismissed the allegorical interpretation of the bible, and condemned Mystical theology, which he saw as more Platonic than Christian.[28] "The mystical", as the search for the hidden meaning of texts, became secularised, and also associated with literature, as opposed to science and prose.[29]


Science was also distinguished from religion. By the middle of the 17th century, "the mystical" is increasingly applied exclusively to the religious realm, separating religion and "natural philosophy" as two distinct approaches to the discovery of the hidden meaning of the universe.[30] The traditional hagiographies and writings of the saints became designated as "mystical", shifting from the virtues and miracles to extraordinary experiences and states of mind, thereby creating a newly coined "mystical tradition".[2] A new understanding developed of the Divine as residing within human, an essence beyond the varieties of religious expressions.[25]


Origins of the term "mystical experience"

The term "mystical experience" has become synonymous with the terms "religious experience", spiritual experience and sacred experience.[18] A "religious experience" is a subjective experience which is interpreted within a religious framework.[18] The concept originated in the 19th century, as a defense against the growing rationalism of western society.[20] William James popularized the use of the term "religious experience" in his The Varieties of Religious Experience.[19][20] It has also influenced the understanding of mysticism as a distinctive experience which supplies knowledge of the transcendental.[web 1]


Wayne Proudfoot traces the roots of the notion of "religious experience" further back to the German theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768–1834), who argued that religion is based on a feeling of the infinite. The notion of "religious experience" was used by Schleiermacher to defend religion against the growing scientific and secular critique. It was adopted by many scholars of religion, of which William James was the most influential.[42]


A broad range of western and eastern movements have incorporated and influenced the emergence of the modern notion of "mystical experience", such as the Perennial philosophy, Transcendentalism, Universalism, the Theosophical Society, New Thought, Neo-Vedanta and Buddhist modernism.[43][44]


Orientalism and the "pizza effect"

Main articles: Neo-Vedanta and Buddhist modernism


The interplay between western and eastern notions of religion is an important factor in the popularisation of the notion of "mystical experience". In the 19th century, when Asian countries were colonialised by western states, a process of cultural mimesis began.[32][33][20] In this process, Western ideas about religion, especially the notion of "religious experience" were introduced to Asian countries by missionaries, scholars and the Theosophical Society, and amalgamated in a new understanding of the Indian and Buddhist traditions. This amalgam was exported back to the West as 'authentic Asian traditions', and acquired a great popularity in the west. Due to this western popularity, it also gained authority back in India, Sri Lanka and Japan.[32][33][20]


The best-known representatives of this amalgamated tradition are Annie Besant (Theosophical Society), Swami Vivekenanda and Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan (Neo-Vedanta), Anagarika Dharmapala, a 19th-century Sri Lankan Buddhist activist who founded the Maha Bodhi Society, and D.T. Suzuki, a Japanese scholar and Zen-Buddhist. A synonymous term for this broad understanding is nondualism. This mutual influence is also known as the pizza effect.

This is the outcome of the mystics,or religious mysticism. This is the reason why I'm in the position of Martin Luther.

Thanks

 

[Sand Dancer]

I think it can be similar, but the whole premise of the western religion is that God is outside of you and listens to prayer, whereas in eastern religion, God is everywhere, even inside us, so meditation is being silent and empty, so that you can be in touch with God within.

 

[Yoshua]

I think it can be similar, but the whole premise of the western religion is that God is outside of you and listens to prayer, whereas in eastern religion, God is everywhere, even inside us, so meditation is being silent and empty, so that you can be in touch with God within.

Thanks for your answer.

 

[sojourner]

I think it can be similar, but the whole premise of the western religion is that God is outside of you and listens to prayer, whereas in eastern religion, God is everywhere, even inside us, so meditation is being silent and empty, so that you can be in touch with God within.

I don't think that's quite right, because the whole point of Xy is that God dwells within us in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't think that's quite right, because the whole point of Xy is that God dwells within us in the Holy Spirit.

What is accurate in what she says however it that despite what scripture teaches, people in much of their Christian experience do not experience God closer than their own breath, but rather envision him in heaven, up there somewhere, etc. He is experienced externally because they experience themselves as separated by their sin, save for the hope of life after death.

 

[YmirGF]

Hi qkonn,

Thanks for participating in my thread about Contemplative Christianity. Kindly try to check the Transcendental Meditation, their practice of meditation are similar with the contemplative practices.

Contemplative Christianity is known as the emerging church. They are not in line with the evangelical practice of contemplative. The word Christian is very broad, a lot of christian groups claimed they are Christian.

Thanks

The highlighted portion is certainly news to me. Then again, I've only done TM for 40, give or take, years now. I can only stress that TM is not contemplation or contemplative. It simply isn't.

 

[sojourner]

What is accurate in what she says however it that despite what scripture teaches, people in much of their Christian experience do not experience God closer than their own breath, but rather envision him in heaven, up there somewhere, etc. He is experienced externally because they experience themselves as separated by their sin, save for the hope of life after death.

That's true -- the transcendent often eclipses the imminent in pop Christianity.

 

[Politesse]

This is the outcome of the mystics,or religious mysticism. This is the reason why I'm in the position of Martin Luther.

And all the Lutherans chuckle.

Luther was no enemy of contemplation and meditation.

 

[Yoshua]

The highlighted portion is certainly news to me. Then again, I've only done TM for 40, give or take, years now. I can only stress that TM is not contemplation or contemplative. It simply isn't.

The breathe prayer and the Centering prayer, try to check out their meditation. I believed Madhuri commented that their practices similar with eastern meditation before if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

And all the Lutherans chuckle.

Luther was no enemy of contemplation and meditation.

Yes, in general we may say he is not the enemy. Take a look at the doctrine, the view and approach to contemplative teachings.

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

The breathe prayer and the Centering prayer, try to check out their meditation. I believed Madhuri commented that their practices similar with eastern meditation before if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks

*sigh* Have you ever had someone tell you just relax, to just breathe, to just follow your breath in order to calm your agitated mind? Nothing magical going on here. Nothing satanic. You just need to calm your worried mind about such fearful things, just relax, just breathe, let it all go.... See, feel better now?

 

[Desert Snake]

The highlighted portion is certainly news to me. Then again, I've only done TM for 40, give or take, years now. I can only stress that TM is not contemplation or contemplative. It simply isn't.

He didn't say that it was, though. I think that he said, it's similar to what //I am going to say some//, are doing. This is probably also in line with the reference to an emergent church. Notice the dissimilarities between what is being presented as ''contemplative Christianity'', by different people.

 

[YmirGF]

*sigh* Have you ever had someone tell you just relax, to just breathe, to just follow your breath in order to calm your agitated mind? Nothing magical going on here. Nothing satanic. You just need to calm your worried mind about such fearful things, just relax, just breathe, let it all go.... See, feel better now?

Hehe. Agreed. In TM, I was trained that breathing is not especially important, as long as you continue to do so (LOL), and that it is the mantra that is used almost like a skateboard, propelling one into deeper states. There is nothing remotely contemplative about this process unless ones stretches "contemplative" beyond all recognition.

 

[YmirGF]

He didn't say that it was, though. I think that he said, it's similar to what //I am going to say some//, are doing. This is probably also in line with the reference to an emergent church. Notice the dissimilarities between what is being presented as ''contemplative Christianity'', by different people.

I understand and the issue on variations did not escape my notice. I will admit I am somewhat biased though and have always been skeptical of Christian so-called "meditation". My understanding has been that, in Christian terms. meditation is indeed more accurately described as contemplation. That some might diverge from this general stance isn't surprising, but "serious" meditation (say in the Buddhist or Hindu sense) is not central to the Christian experience.... unless we warp all notions of what meditation is.

 

[Windwalker]

Hehe. Agreed. In TM, I was trained that breathing is not especially important, as long as you continue to do so (LOL), and that it is the mantra that is used almost like a skateboard, propelling one into deeper states. There is nothing remotely contemplative about this process unless ones stretches "contemplative" beyond all recognition.

The breathing for me can become a point of focus if and when the mind for whatever reason just won't sit still that day (too much caffeine the usual cause). I just briefly come back to it as a point of gentle relaxing, where it becomes both physical and symbolic, breathing in peace, breathing out stress, and so forth. What I find happens when you enter into meditative states, is that breathing at times becomes almost non-existent. It's there, but so quiet and still. I think they say the normal breath count into meditative states is around 6 breaths or less per minute. Something like that.

Seriously, the things people come up with in their imaginations about these things is amusing, if not annoying as they spread misinformation and fear about something they no nothing about. First rule of thumb, respond with fear to the unfamiliar. Something people learned in their evolutionary past as highly anxious primates in the forest primeval. We are after all, really just monkey's with oversized brains. We look for this or that to be fearful of and to chatter neurotically all day long inside our heads and blathering out our fears to one another, as we sit out on the limbs of the great Internet tree. "Danger, danger, danger, worry, worry worry,"

 

[Desert Snake]

I understand and the issue on variations did not escape my notice. I will admit I am somewhat biased though and have always been skeptical of Christian so-called "meditation". My understanding has been that, in Christian terms. meditation is indeed more accurately described as contemplation. That some might diverge from this general stance isn't surprising, but "serious" meditation (say in the Buddhist or Hindu sense) is not central to the Christian experience.... unless we warp all notions of what meditation is.

Formal or as you put it serious Buddhist or Hindu meditation, would be....Buddhist or Hindu, imo. That is my problem with it being presented as Christian Contemplation''; as well as not being necessarily contemplation, as anyone with meditation experience will know, as well. That being said, Ithink that many, because they do not know meditation forms very well, think that Christian Contemplation'', is actually the same as the 'eastern forms'/of meditation,', whereas in reality, we know that they usually aren't.

anyways, we basically agree, however, I think that a confused and 'other' religious presentation, and labeling it ''Christian'', just isn't kosher. Besides the fact that certain types of meditation, being religious, can invite demons etc.

 

[Windwalker]

Besides the fact that certain types of meditation, being religious, can invite demons etc.

Do you have any sources you can cite to validate this? Any researchers who have studied practitioners who meditate that can show studies where demon possessions occur? Links to this research would be good to see, to look at the credentials of these who claim this. I know I've asked a half dozen times or more and have never seen anyone back this up claim up with any actual data. Maybe you can where they can't?

Where was their research done? What were the conditions of the testing? Who were the test subjects? How did they measure demon possession? Where they different types of demons? And so forth? I'm looking forward to going over the research data you bring forth and present for all of us to review.

 

[Windwalker]

There is nothing remotely contemplative about this process unless ones stretches "contemplative" beyond all recognition.

Actually, I personally don't see whopping major differences between actual Christian meditation from other forms of meditation in the world. There are different types of meditation, and what is called contemplation is one of those types, albeight uniquely rooted in Christian language and symbolism. I could attempt to make some comparisons, but I don't want to spend much time on the point.

My real point is it matters not one iota if meditation practices are the same, or not the same, between various religions. The detractors are trying to say Eastern forms are bad, evil, demonic, and Christian is not, because it really only means reading a book seriously (according to them). Therefore since they practice meditation in Eastern religions, for a Christian to do in any way that looks remotely like them, opens them to the demons that the Hindus and the Buddhist are constantly exposing themselves to, which explains why they don't believe Christian theology - demon possession.

This is the twisted logic that seems to make sense to them. Ignoring of course the fact that they also engage in prayers and offerings, have worship communities, build and attend services at temples, have and celebrate holidays, have, read and study sacred literature, and all that. None of those are deemed evil even though they practice those the exact same things in Christianity. But meditation is somehow "different", inexplicably so by them. That's "dangerous", whereas the other things apparently are no quite so risky.

 

[sojourner]

Hi Sojourner,

Early modern meaning
See also: Early modern period


The Appearance of the Holy Spirit before Saint Teresa of Ávila, Peter Paul Rubens
In the sixteenth and seventeenth century mysticism came to be used as a substantive.[25] This shift was linked to a new discourse,[25] in which science and religion were separated.[27]
Luther dismissed the allegorical interpretation of the bible, and condemned Mystical theology, which he saw as more Platonic than Christian.[28] "The mystical", as the search for the hidden meaning of texts, became secularised, and also associated with literature, as opposed to science and prose.[29]


Science was also distinguished from religion. By the middle of the 17th century, "the mystical" is increasingly applied exclusively to the religious realm, separating religion and "natural philosophy" as two distinct approaches to the discovery of the hidden meaning of the universe.[30] The traditional hagiographies and writings of the saints became designated as "mystical", shifting from the virtues and miracles to extraordinary experiences and states of mind, thereby creating a newly coined "mystical tradition".[2] A new understanding developed of the Divine as residing within human, an essence beyond the varieties of religious expressions.[25]


Origins of the term "mystical experience"

The term "mystical experience" has become synonymous with the terms "religious experience", spiritual experience and sacred experience.[18] A "religious experience" is a subjective experience which is interpreted within a religious framework.[18] The concept originated in the 19th century, as a defense against the growing rationalism of western society.[20] William James popularized the use of the term "religious experience" in his The Varieties of Religious Experience.[19][20] It has also influenced the understanding of mysticism as a distinctive experience which supplies knowledge of the transcendental.[web 1]


Wayne Proudfoot traces the roots of the notion of "religious experience" further back to the German theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768–1834), who argued that religion is based on a feeling of the infinite. The notion of "religious experience" was used by Schleiermacher to defend religion against the growing scientific and secular critique. It was adopted by many scholars of religion, of which William James was the most influential.[42]


A broad range of western and eastern movements have incorporated and influenced the emergence of the modern notion of "mystical experience", such as the Perennial philosophy, Transcendentalism, Universalism, the Theosophical Society, New Thought, Neo-Vedanta and Buddhist modernism.[43][44]


Orientalism and the "pizza effect"

Main articles: Neo-Vedanta and Buddhist modernism


The interplay between western and eastern notions of religion is an important factor in the popularisation of the notion of "mystical experience". In the 19th century, when Asian countries were colonialised by western states, a process of cultural mimesis began.[32][33][20] In this process, Western ideas about religion, especially the notion of "religious experience" were introduced to Asian countries by missionaries, scholars and the Theosophical Society, and amalgamated in a new understanding of the Indian and Buddhist traditions. This amalgam was exported back to the West as 'authentic Asian traditions', and acquired a great popularity in the west. Due to this western popularity, it also gained authority back in India, Sri Lanka and Japan.[32][33][20]


The best-known representatives of this amalgamated tradition are Annie Besant (Theosophical Society), Swami Vivekenanda and Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan (Neo-Vedanta), Anagarika Dharmapala, a 19th-century Sri Lankan Buddhist activist who founded the Maha Bodhi Society, and D.T. Suzuki, a Japanese scholar and Zen-Buddhist. A synonymous term for this broad understanding is nondualism. This mutual influence is also known as the pizza effect.

This is the outcome of the mystics,or religious mysticism. This is the reason why I'm in the position of Martin Luther.

Thanks

This doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about here. Meditative spiritual practice isn't "mysticism" in this implication.