Eckhart Tolle

[K.Venugopal]

Is it an inviolable rule that spiritual teachings must be free?

Yes, that seems obvious to me. We can be sure that whoever charges for spiritual teachings has himself not become spiritual. He would only be teaching at the verbal level. A true spiritual master reaches out to us through the verbal level onto the level of consciousness.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Running a for profit business is not in contradiction with the teachings he presents, he's a believer in only having to give up the materialism in your mind.

I do not intend to suspect the motive of any particular teacher. But has business got anything to do with spirituality? I would define spirituality as not being dependent on anything or anyone psychologically. Conversely, materialism occurs when we develop a psychological dependence on anything, even a person. Mind is the last citadel of giving up our psychological dependence on anything (lusting in the mind etc.). So if one gives up materialism in the mind one would hardly be a materialist in the external world.

 

[K.Venugopal]

People need to eat...

but granted, there is a fine line between a genuine teacher..and one who is simply selling stuff (however good their out put may be)

Personally I'm having a kind of spiritual crisis....
I've come to conclusions that well are a bitter pill...

What I think about Tolle, not that I have read much!..is he is good at a certain stage. There are so many beginner books out there....numerous...a ridiculous amount. In fact I've thought about writing my own...but I know publishing is a joke, I might just do a website.

But in the end, beginner books like Tolle..and similar "stage" books like "A course in miracles, conversations with God" etc are great. But, as been hinted...you need to return to the source texts. Tolle et al will help you undertstand those texts. For example read tolle, then pick up the upanishads or the tao te chin.....or do it the other way around... You will gain further insight into these ancient texts.

One clear lesson is that, there is only one ritual. People often wonder around looking for a ritual a magic formula, a practice, a way to do things... there is none. The only ritual is that of "creation" from nothing to something and something to nothing (which if one looks deep enough is the same thing).

Different people have different requirements of course; the rosary, a chant, recitation, occult rituals etc. can all be useful, for some. Those that have been extremely removed form the divine...in some way. Ultimatly of course they end up being a distraction. A simple truth is that the purpose of rituaol is to not have ritual. SO the purpose of mantra, rosary, meditational practise...etc. is to not have one. So that one BECOMES....you cease to pray, cease to meditate...you just are...you ARE the prayer, you are the meditation. Of course understanding this, and living it, is a different kettle of fish.

From Tolle then, we gain a spring board...a spark. Once ignited there are chopices, do we follow the road often trodden, one of more books, more toys, more te4chniques... or do we stop....stop....and stop again. Until we embrace the silence.

For it is only in silence that we can become Gnosis.

Very inspiring writing. "People need to eat..." Nisargadatta Maharaj said, "Your hunger will bring you the food you need, your illness will bring you the medicine you require."

 

[K.Venugopal]

Yet God costs nothing...

Yes. Love costs nothing. A smile costs nothing. A dance costs nothing. A song costs nothing. An orgasm costs nothing. A sermon costs nothing (even if it is on the Mount!). Only fear costs and desire costs.

 

[no-body]

I do not intend to suspect the motive of any particular teacher. But has business got anything to do with spirituality?

Nothing. Tolle is presenting material and items for sale and people buy it. At no time have I seen him try to sucker anyone in or say that his teachings are anymore helpful than material that is available for free. People hear him and want to hear more. The onus is always on the individual since he makes no special claims about his works.

Are you saying that someone who is profiting off spiritual views and becoming rich can no longer be spiritual?

 

[K.Venugopal]

Are you saying that someone who is profiting off spiritual views and becoming rich can no longer be spiritual?

Yes. Why would a spiritual person (not merely a person who strives to become spiritual, as in the case with us common folks) need to make profits? Unless he suffers from a sense of lack. In that case he is not spiritual. If the argument is that with the profits he can help others, then he is only proclaiming that his spiritual remedy is no remedy.

 

[no-body]

Yes. Why would a spiritual person (not merely a person who strives to become spiritual, as in the case with us common folks) need to make profits? Unless he suffers from a sense of lack. In that case he is not spiritual. If the argument is that with the profits he can help others, then he is only proclaiming that his spiritual remedy is no remedy.

I'm not necessarily sure I agree with you as if that is the case you eliminate about 99.9% of any spiritual teacher that has published material or even accepted donations to get by. They aren't selling spirituality, they are selling guide posts to better understand spirituality. As long as they aren't saying that their material is special in some way or will help you more than the next guy then I don't see the harm in it.

A spiritual teacher can enjoy working and making money too. Or is spirituality a narrow, strict view that the true Buddha needs to spend all their time devoting themselves to charity and just sitting around in blissful nirvana?

To try to get this discussion back to Tolle I've found his work very helpful in cultivating a shift in consciousness but I am not entirely sure of his motives and am always interested in any real criticism of his works. So far I have found nothing but ego-based critiques like how he laughs, sounds, looks, the terminology he uses is too "new agey" but I do see some flaws in his teachings and wish there was more discussion. Particularly bothersome to me is how he addresses the mentally ill, as if people don't really need medication and just need to be in the now.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I'm not necessarily sure I agree with you as if that is the case you eliminate about 99.9% of any spiritual teacher that has published material or even accepted donations to get by. They aren't selling spirituality, they are selling guide posts to better understand spirituality.

Publishing book costs money and accepting donations for costs incidental to transmitting the message does not amount to profiting. A spiritual master would convey his message directly and be done with it and would leave it to his disciples to carry forward the message if they so wish. If he himself desires to target his message to a larger audience directly, he would be caught up in the karma syndrome and his spirituality would be compromised. A spiritual master would have nothing to “sell”. He would only be expressing himself to those interested.

As long as they aren't saying that their material is special in some way or will help you more than the next guy then I don't see the harm in it.

Ah, you should hear the Christian tele-evangelists preach on TV. They sure sound they are selling a unique product and you would be damned to hell if you do not buy it!

A spiritual teacher can enjoy working and making money too.

I don’t think so. As difficult as it is for a true princess to sleep on a single coin comfortably even if it is below 3 high mattresses!

Or is spirituality a narrow, strict view that the true Buddha needs to spend all their time devoting themselves to charity and just sitting around in blissful nirvana?

Spirituality is totality that does not require anything particular to do. A truly spiritual person would be doing just that – sitting around in blissful nirvana, even if he or she appears to be doing a lot of things.

To try to get this discussion back to Tolle I've found his work very helpful in cultivating a shift in consciousness but I am not entirely sure of his motives and am always interested in any real criticism of his works. So far I have found nothing but ego-based critiques like how he laughs, sounds, looks, the terminology he uses is too "new agey" but I do see some flaws in his teachings and wish there was more discussion.

I think there are two aspects here. You could take a teaching at face value and profit by it. A teacher need not come into the picture unless you have this curiosity to know if he is the best exemplar of his teaching. A good number of times they are not and you might want to label them as hypocrites. But that need not have an effect on the teachings, taken at face value.

Particularly bothersome to me is how he addresses the mentally ill, as if people don't really need medication and just need to be in the now.

It has been the experience of many spiritual people that you don’t need anything under any circumstances if you have mastered the art of being in the now. But this understanding cannot be applied on suffering people who may be far away from the now. They would need immediate medical aid and compassion.

 

[Onkara]

You mean it is an inviolable rule that everything has to cost something?

I would agree with that in the sense that to progress we need to make sacrifices. Everything costs something. This puts Tolle's products into perspective in that we pay for what we get. You are dead right, it is desrie and fear which motivates the sales. If the desire is there then we buy the T-Shirt. What we need is to ensure we buy the right thing to eliminate those desires and fear (poetically speaking).

I have not read more than a page of Tolle (browsing in shops), I understood he was based on nondualism.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I would agree with that in the sense that to progress we need to make sacrifices. Everything costs something. This puts Tolle's products into perspective in that we pay for what we get. You are dead right, it is desrie and fear which motivates the sales. If the desire is there then we buy the T-Shirt. What we need is to ensure we buy the right thing to eliminate those desires and fear (poetically speaking).

I do not want to seem quibbling but unless we have a similar definition for "progress", "sacrifice" etc., we are likely to miss each other's point. What makes spiritual people different is that they offer an alternate vision that is not caught up in the materialist’s sense of lack. But if those very spiritual people take to ways of the material world, they are offering little hope.

 

[Onkara]

I do not want to seem quibbling but unless we have a similar definition for "progress", "sacrifice" etc., we are likely to miss each other's point. What makes spiritual people different is that they offer an alternate vision that is not caught up in the materialist’s sense of lack. But if those very spiritual people take to ways of the material world, they are offering little hope.

Very good points. I think we have agreement without requiring a definition
Is there more than spritual versus the material? Is there something beyond both? I fear unless we can relate this to Tolle I may need a new thread.

 

[Mr Cheese]

A truly spiritual person would be doing just that – sitting around in blissful nirvana, even if he or she appears to be doing a lot of things.

All beings by nature are Buddha,
as ice by nature is water;
apart from water there is no ice,
apart from beings,
no Buddha.

–Hakuin

 

[no-body]

Publishing book costs money and accepting donations for costs incidental to transmitting the message does not amount to profiting. A spiritual master would convey his message directly and be done with it and would leave it to his disciples to carry forward the message if they so wish. If he himself desires to target his message to a larger audience directly, he would be caught up in the karma syndrome and his spirituality would be compromised. A spiritual master would have nothing to “sell”. He would only be expressing himself to those interested.

Ah, you should hear the Christian tele-evangelists preach on TV. They sure sound they are selling a unique product and you would be damned to hell if you do not buy it! I don’t think so. As difficult as it is for a true princess to sleep on a single coin comfortably even if it is below 3 high mattresses! Spirituality is totality that does not require anything particular to do. A truly spiritual person would be doing just that –

Well before Tolle became a spiritual teacher he claims to have spent years doing nothing but sitting on park benches and was thought insane by his friends and family--or so he claims anyway. I believe his logic is that his main body of works are available for free to anyone that wants them and anything else he sells is supplemental. I guess I agree with you in principle but I'm not entirely sure enlightenment means complete denial of the world of forms.

sitting around in blissful nirvana, even if he or she

appears to be doing a lot of things. I think there are two aspects here. You could take a teaching at face value and profit by it. A teacher need not come into the picture unless you have this curiosity to know if he is the best exemplar of his teaching. A good number of times they are not and you might want to label them as hypocrites. But that need not have an effect on the teachings, taken at face value. It has been the experience of many spiritual people that you don’t need anything under any circumstances if you have mastered the art of being in the now. But this understanding cannot be applied on suffering people who may be far away from the now. They would need immediate medical aid and compassion.

That is pretty much exactly Tolles message.

I can't really fault the man if people don't do what he says. Like most new agers Tolles followers tend to be very flaky; they pick up his terminology and use it like a cult, they try to claim that one is more enlightened than the other, etc but that is not the message he gives.

I'll just say that I like Tolles message and even if the man himself is not enlightened he repackages it in a way that makes it more appealing to the layman. That someone gets something out of it is all I think that really matters.