Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

[DawudTalut]

Not to get into it, but if you are a Muslim, you might note that Islam did not get the message.

Your phrasing is slightly confusing to me. Did God create us to worship him or for God to worship man?

I can see where man might want God to worship us but cannot see an all powerful God wanting such lowly creatures worshiping him.

It would be like man wanting ants to worship us. Too silly to even contemplate.

Regards
DL

Peace be on you.

Rewriting with blue words added and rewriting the sentence in different way....Hopefully now it will be clear.


Peace be on all.
According to Ahmadiyya Muslims, God made human for His [i.e. God's] worship [worship which should lead to kindness to His creature].....It is virtue.

< God made human so that they worship God [worship which should lead to kindness to God's creature] >

Jesus (on whom be peace) like other Prophets of God, too came for this purpose. When faced problems, he migrated to Kashmir and continued his message of Oneness of God and human rights

Thanks.

 

[Tumah]

God has short term memory loss?

"Don't make graven images. Consider this in the Top Ten."
(5 seconds later)
"Here, make this graven image, plus a gilded box with cherubim on it, plus ..."

In context, the commandment against idols seems to be for worshiping. As in 2 Kings 18:4, where Hezekiah destroys it because people were worshiping it. There doesn't seem to be a prohibition on images for decorative or healing purposes.

 

[Tumah]

Not a thing but a religion will not use an emblem that is disrespected.

Again, a snake is not an objectively evil creature.
The snake in the garden of Eden, did represent an evil creature.
These are two different things.

Similarly, trees are not evil items and wood was in fact used in Temple worship.
Trees used in idol worship become an evil item and are required to be destroyed, as the Asherah tree.

I'm not sure I understand this.

I said, "In that day, serpent worship was widespread"

Seems simple enough.

"and Christianity reversed the moral of Eden that the Jews had in order to vilify those serpent worshiping sects."

Christianity was charged by Constantine to rid his empire of all other cults. That included the many serpent worshiping cults all over the Middle East and up to Ireland and Scotland.

The Jews had the moral of the story as our elevation and Christianity reversed that to our fall.

I have no problem with everything you say, except for the part about the story of Eden being about elevation. There is no textual proof in Jewish literature to this claim and I have already presented opposing proof.

The tree of knowledge is thought by many to be the tree of basically all knowledge as all knowledge is subject to being either good or evil. Without the knowledge of basically everything, there is nothing that a mind has to apply logic and reason to. So to say A & E had logic would not be correct. If A & E had logic, they would have asked God to explain reproduction way back in Gen 1 when he told them they could do just that.

There is a difference between "many" and "classic Jewish scholarship". What you are describing here is the former, but not the latter.
I have no idea what you're referring to with regards to explaining reproduction. And in fact, in "classic Jewish literature" Adam and Eve were engaged in reproduction before the snake got involved and was actually the trigger for the snake.

I agree. That was/is important to Jews but Christians never deal with that notion.

Before eating, A & E are without desire and basically brain dead.

Desires come from the heart, not the brain. I don't understand why this means brain dead to you. And even then it doesn't mean that they were "heart dead", but that they had no desire. They could still love and hate, subject to who they logically decided needed to be loved or hated.

This link is slow to go but you may find it interesting.

The part I wish to convey starts at about the 26 min mark.

Where does it end?

If given evil, he would soon learn to desire good. There is likely an esoteric meaning to that story but I am not familiar with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Can you explain?

If they were not morally blind, why did they not recognize that they were naked before eating of the tree?

Because without desire, there is nothing objectively wrong with being naked, anymore than there is nothing objectively wrong with not wearing gloves or shoes. Its only once they have carnal desire that it needs to be curbed with clothes.

What did God mean when saying their eyes were opened and they became as God in the knowing of good and evil?

The opening of the eyes, represents the ability to perceive an item as a source of desire. As Rashi says "The eyes see, the heart desires and the body sins."

G-d also desires good and evil in the respect that without G-d's desire for good and evil to exist, they could not (Isa. 45:7).

Apologies. I did not see a quote function.

Its a bit annoying, but you have to do it manually, by adding [q uote] and [/q uote] to the comment you are responding to.

 

[rusra02]

I think one only has to look at the bloodshed, oppression, suffering, and evil perpetrated throughout history to see the events in Eden were a disastrous evil to mankind. (Romans 5:12)

 

[Greatest I am]

In reference to not needing an atonement without a fall, not necessarily we still need atonement for not being perfect the way we were made in the first place.

We are all the best we can possibly be, --- given all the conditions, ---- that got us here.

It is demonstrable that we live in the best of all possible worlds because it is the only possible world, --- given all the conditions, ---- that got us here.

Nature always creates for the best possible end.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Again, a snake is not an objectively evil creature.
The snake in the garden of Eden, did represent an evil creature.
These are two different things.

Similarly, trees are not evil items and wood was in fact used in Temple worship.
Trees used in idol worship become an evil item and are required to be destroyed, as the Asherah tree.

It may have become evil with the Christian interpretation but the Jews continued to venerate the serpent in the symbology of their religion.

They thought it good, as did most people in those days which I think is what prompted Christianity to try to discredit it.

The new tries to destroy the old.

You will note, if you read the story literally, that God just calls the serpent the most subtle which is not really an evil trait.
In fact, being subtle is more good than evil.

Gen 3 1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I think one only has to look at the bloodshed, oppression, suffering, and evil perpetrated throughout history to see the events in Eden were a disastrous evil to mankind. (Romans 5:12)

When read the Christian way, I agree.

But without it, from the Jewish perspective, we would still be dumb and blind if Eve had not taken the initiative and basically told God to shove his stay stupid commandment.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Peace be on you.

Rewriting with blue words added and rewriting the sentence in different way....Hopefully now it will be clear.


Peace be on all.
According to Ahmadiyya Muslims, God made human for His [i.e. God's] worship [worship which should lead to kindness to His creature].....It is virtue.

< God made human so that they worship God [worship which should lead to kindness to God's creature] >

Jesus (on whom be peace) like other Prophets of God, too came for this purpose. When faced problems, he migrated to Kashmir and continued his message of Oneness of God and human rights

Thanks.

So without our worship, God would be cruel to us.

What a prick.

Why would you follow such a vile demiurge?

And is worship born of fear real worship?

I think not.

Regards
DL

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I think one only has to look at the bloodshed, oppression, suffering, and evil perpetrated throughout history to see the events in Eden were a disastrous evil to mankind. (Romans 5:12)

I would think the evil that goes on today is more evil than two kids eating fruit behind God's back.

 

[Tumah]

It may have become evil with the Christian interpretation but the Jews continued to venerate the serpent in the symbology of their religion.

They thought it good, as did most people in those days which I think is what prompted Christianity to try to discredit it.

The new tries to destroy the old.

Again a snake is not an evil creatures. There is a difference between snakes and the Snake. As I pointed out before, Jewish sources do not look at the Snake in a positive light. That's an irrefutable fact.

You will note, if you read the story literally, that God just calls the serpent the most subtle which is not really an evil trait.
In fact, being subtle is more good than evil.

Gen 3 1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

Regards
DL

Its a play on words. The word "ערום" means both "naked" and "scheming". The previous verse uses the word to say that Adam and Eve word "naked" and were not embarrassed. The next verse uses the same word to say that the snake was the most "naked" of all the beasts of the field.
Perhaps related Pro. 13:16 "Every schemer (or naked one) will do with knowledge."

Either way, Jews do not rely on the Written Torah alone, and I can provide you with a number of Jewish sources indicating that the snake from the garden (and not just any snake) was considered evil.
Here's one to start with from Pirkei D'Rabi Eliezer:

...Samael took his group and descended and saw all the creatures that the Holy One blessed be He created in His world, and he did not find one that was as wise in his wickedness as the snake as it says, "And the snake was scheming...(Gen. 3:1 also compare Pro. 8:12)." And its image was like a port. And he ascended and rode on it...​

 

[rusra02]

When read the Christian way, I agree.

But without it, from the Jewish perspective, we would still be dumb and blind if Eve had not taken the initiative and basically told God to shove his stay stupid commandment.

Regards
DL

I'm not sure what you mean by the Jewish perspective. The Scriptural perspective in Genesis is, IMO, Eve's being seduced by Satan into believing she could decide for herself what is good and bad. I think this grasping for moral independence, apart from God, is what has led mankind, not to enlightenment, but into darkness. Adam and Eve already knew it was bad to disobey God. Made in God's image with his attributes, Adam and Eve could have acknowledged God's right to set standards of good and bad, but selfishly choose to ignore God, with just the results God foretold.

 

[Greatest I am]

Again a snake is not an evil creatures. There is a difference between snakes and the Snake. As I pointed out before, Jewish sources do not look at the Snake in a positive light. That's an irrefutable fact.


Its a play on words. The word "ערום" means both "naked" and "scheming". The previous verse uses the word to say that Adam and Eve word "naked" and were not embarrassed. The next verse uses the same word to say that the snake was the most "naked" of all the beasts of the field.
Perhaps related Pro. 13:16 "Every schemer (or naked one) will do with knowledge."

Either way, Jews do not rely on the Written Torah alone, and I can provide you with a number of Jewish sources indicating that the snake from the garden (and not just any snake) was considered evil.
Here's one to start with from Pirkei D'Rabi Eliezer:

...Samael took his group and descended and saw all the creatures that the Holy One blessed be He created in His world, and he did not find one that was as wise in his wickedness as the snake as it says, "And the snake was scheming...(Gen. 3:1 also compare Pro. 8:12)." And its image was like a port. And he ascended and rode on it...​

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

You should know that we can have the bible say damned near anything.

We will never know what Moses or the3 old Jews thought since Moses was a myth and never existed but we can know from the tradition of his staff and the Lev6y clan using the serpent symbol that they had respect for it.

No one who disrespects something will use it as his totem.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Regards
DL

 

[DawudTalut]

....

And is worship born of fear real worship?

...

Worship born of love, spiritual beauty and benevolence.
Worship is in vast meaning of paying rights of God and then to His creation, to live and let live peacefully.
If one does not worship, it is b/n one and God.

 

[Tumah]

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

You should know that we can have the bible say damned near anything.

We will never know what Moses or the3 old Jews thought since Moses was a myth and never existed but we can know from the tradition of his staff and the Lev6y clan using the serpent symbol that they had respect for it.

No one who disrespects something will use it as his totem.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Regards
DL

I'm not sure why you're quoting the NT to me, as I'm a Jew.
And again, its not the Levite tribe, its the Dan tribe that has the snake as its symbol.
And of course, the symbol is not the snake from Eden, its just a regular snake.

 

[Greatest I am]

I'm not sure what you mean by the Jewish perspective. The Scriptural perspective in Genesis is, IMO, Eve's being seduced by Satan into believing she could decide for herself what is good and bad. I think this grasping for moral independence, apart from God, is what has led mankind, not to enlightenment, but into darkness. Adam and Eve already knew it was bad to disobey God. Made in God's image with his attributes, Adam and Eve could have acknowledged God's right to set standards of good and bad, but selfishly choose to ignore God, with just the results God foretold.

You have it all *** backwards.

The serpent dis not seduce and spoke the truth. With the knowledge of the tree, as God himself confirms in this myth, A & E did gain the ability to decide for themselves what was good and what was evil.

Moral independence apart from God is a good idea when God is a genocidal son murdering prick.

You might note how no Christian in the free world is advocating for God's law as the law of the land. My guess is that no one wants to stone their unruly children or people who wear two different cloths.

"Adam and Eve already knew it was bad to disobey God."

This is too foolish to let go.

Tell us how they could have already known that eating of the tree was evil when they knew nothing of good and evil.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Worship born of love, spiritual beauty and benevolence.
Worship is in vast meaning of paying rights of God and then to His creation, to live and let live peacefully.
If one does not worship, it is b/n one and God.

Any time you want to answer my question, I am here for you.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I'm not sure why you're quoting the NT to me, as I'm a Jew.
And again, its not the Levite tribe, its the Dan tribe that has the snake as its symbol.
And of course, the symbol is not the snake from Eden, its just a regular snake.

Who wrote the N T if not Jews?

Regards
DL

 

[Tumah]

Who wrote the N T if not Jews?

Regards
DL

Christians.

 

[Greatest I am]

And again, its not the Levite tribe, its the Dan tribe that has the snake as its symbol.
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_of_Levi

http://gnosticwarrior.com/serpent.html

The "race of the Dragons" or Serpents means the Wise Adepts. The names Hivi or Hivite, and Levi—signify a "Serpent"; and the Hivites or Serpent-tribe of Palestine, were, like all Levites and Ophites of Israel, initiated Ministers to the temples, i.e., Occultists, as are the priests of Quetzo Cohuatl. The Gibeonites whom Joshua assigned to the service of the sanctuary were Hivites.

I recognize that the tribe of Dan also used a serpent emblem but that just emphasizes how much the old Jews respected the serpent.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Christians.

They were not bright enough.

Regards
DL