Edward Snowden - traitor ?

[apophenia]

The 29-year-old government contractor who turned whistleblower to reveal vast US surveillance programs says he is not afraid, despite the intelligence authorities' threat to hunt him down.
In footage shot by The Guardian newspaper, Edward Snowden said he packed his bags for Hong Kong three weeks ago, leaving behind a "very comfortable life" in Hawaii, a salary of $US200,000 ($212,073), a girlfriend, a stable career and a loving family.
"I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, Internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world," Snowden said.
He is behind one of the most significant security breaches in US history, joining the likes of Pentagon Papers leaker Daniel Ellsberg and Bradley Manning, who released US diplomatic cables and war logs to the WikiLeaks website.
Snowden cited both men as inspiration.

U.S. contractor who leaked NSA files drops out of sight, faces legal battle - Yahoo!7


OK. We're getting to the business end of the PATRIOT Act.
Read this for more detail...

US lawmakers call for review of Patriot Act after NSA surveillance revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

And if you would like a comparison with a middle eastern dictatorship, read this ...
Kuwait woman jailed for 11 years over tweets - Yahoo!7

Here's the opening paragraph ...

Kuwait opposition groups say a woman has been sentenced to 11 years in prison for sending tweets that allegedly insulted the nation's ruler.
The woman, named as 37-year-old Huda al-Ajmi, allegedly sent tweets that insulted Kuwait's Emir, Sheikh Sabah al-Ahmad al-Sabahv, and suggested he be overthrown.
The Emir is described in Kuwait's constitution 'immune and inviolable'.
Huda al-Ajmi was sentenced for the tweets, and given two five-year terms for inciting rebellion against the state and violating laws on public discussion.
Kuwait is generally considered more liberal than many other Gulf states, but has begun a crackdown on perceived dissent on social media.

Hang on, didn't America go to war in the middle east to 'save civilisation itself' ?
So how come the approach of Kuwait's dictator, and America's NSA, are so similar ?
Sure, not exactly the same ... but converging.
Please discuss passionately :sleep:

 

[Riverwolf]

No. He's served his people well by letting us in on this terrible thing.

 

[Riverwolf]

Though I did just realize something that makes me VERY sorry for the NSA and FBI: Anonymous is going to have a field day with this.

 

[dust1n]

Even Paul Ryan agrees with you, apophenia.

"I'm sure somebody can come up with a great computer program that says: 'We can do X, Y, and Z,' but that doesn't mean that it's right."

 

[Twilight Hue]

Although rather ironic he's in China escaping US proscution, i think this is one case where the invasive nature of the US goverment needs a serious look over. It seems year after year more freedom is further lost and more intrusiveness pervades into private citizens lives is apparently approaching a line where a person has to decide where he stands in regards to the freedoms this country verses alleged security and safety and what to do about it. On one side it appears he is a man who seems sensitive over the direction a number of goverment officials are steering the country towards and on the other hand is willing to disclose sensitive information in order to do it.

Not sure if his actions are appropriate yet. I guess it depends if the US goverment is actually that far out of control and tyrannical, warranting swift and drastic action, verses legal means of invoking changes to stem the direction of goverment intrusiveness.

I can't help but think theres more to this still before deciding if a great wrong was committed against the US or the beginnings of rebellion against tyranny.

 

[Kalidas]

Though I did just realize something that makes me VERY sorry for the NSA and FBI: Anonymous is going to have a field day with this.

http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2011/317/6/0/we_are_anonymous_by_droxiav-d4g4yug.jpg

 

[Sha'irullah]

Traitor. I find his actions highly despicable and hope he has the same fate as people like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

He is obviously of the lower stock in human intelligence because I knew the government kept account of phone records a long time ago. I viewed this as common fact and turns out it was not. This is nothing but the exchange of the same data phone service providers have to the government. No big deal.
If you dislike the government holding communications data then you must not like your ISP's and TSP's for sharing the exact same information. If one feels offended by this then all I can say is logic is not present in your thinking.

 

[Kalidas]

U.S. contractor who leaked NSA files drops out of sight, faces legal battle - Yahoo!7


OK. We're getting to the business end of the PATRIOT Act.
Read this for more detail...

US lawmakers call for review of Patriot Act after NSA surveillance revelations | World news | guardian.co.uk

And if you would like a comparison with a middle eastern dictatorship, read this ...
Kuwait woman jailed for 11 years over tweets - Yahoo!7

Here's the opening paragraph ...

Hang on, didn't America go to war in the middle east to 'save civilisation itself' ?
So how come the approach of Kuwait's dictator, and America's NSA, are so similar ?
Sure, not exactly the same ... but converging.
Please discuss passionately :sleep:

http://gmanfortruth.files.wordpress...lin20on20liberty20and20security2005182009.jpg


With all the things going on as of late (patriot act, Bradley manning, wars for oil, etc etc) I am getting my college degrees taking my wife and moving to Canada.

 

[Sha'irullah]

http://gmanfortruth.files.wordpress...lin20on20liberty20and20security2005182009.jpg


With all the things going on as of late (patriot act, Bradley manning, wars for oil, etc etc) I am getting my college degrees taking my wife and moving to Canada.

You muss like the cold weather dere, eh?

 

[Riverwolf]

Traitor. I find his actions highly despicable and hope he has the same fate as people like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

He is obviously of the lower stock in human intelligence because I knew the government kept account of phone records a long time ago. I viewed this as common fact and turns out it was not. This is nothing but the exchange of the same data phone service providers have to the government. No big deal.
If you dislike the government holding communications data then you must not like your ISP's and TSP's for sharing the exact same information. If one feels offended by this then all I can say is logic is not present in your thinking.

Please forgive us for not liking fascism.

Sure, the government isn't fascist for the moment. But abuse of power like this can easily lead to fascist thinking.

It's really a problem when I feel more safe from terrorists than I do from my own government.

Don't mistake having a different worldview for lacking logic. FTR, I don't like ANYONE sharing my internet information and have been lately taking steps to protect my privacy.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Please forgive us for not liking fascism.

Sure, the government isn't fascist for the moment. But abuse of power like this can easily lead to fascist thinking.

It's really a problem when I feel more safe from terrorists than I do from my own government.

Don't mistake having a different worldview for lacking logic. FTR, I don't like ANYONE sharing my internet information and have been lately taking steps to protect my privacy.

I understand your thinking but I am really just referring to phone calls. Giving the government the same information your TSP has is no major deal. What is the difference?
Both parties know who you called and they are actually not concerned with it until something important comes up. All they have is a useless list of names and phones numbers along with call data.

As for emails and whatnot this is something I view as negative as I am not sure what sort of information they are receiving.

 

[Badran]

Traitor. I find his actions highly despicable and hope he has the same fate as people like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

How are you even comparing these two cases?

The one of this thread is as i understand that of a man who has leaked information to the press exposing something disturbing happening within his own country. The other case is that of a man (and possibly his wife) who has leaked information to an enemy of his country at a time of war.

How are you comparing them and how are you hoping for a death sentence in a case like this?

 

[Sha'irullah]

How are you even comparing these two cases?

The one of this thread is as i understand that of a man who has leaked information to the press exposing something disturbing happening within his own country. The other case is that of a man (and possibly his wife) who has leaked information to an enemy of his country at a time of war.

How are you comparing them and how are you hoping for a death sentence in a case like this?

The differences between the 2 are that one gave secrets to a foreign country and the other gave it to the news media.

But the actions done violate the same trust an American citizen should have with his/her country.

For Snowden's case he was a worker for his government which makes his actions all the more traitorous.

Sorry if I appear harsh and vindictive but I truly find such actions horrible. The fact that Snowden finds this wrong is quite funny considering the other skeletons the government has in its closet which can be pulled out. The TSP data transference is absolutely not a big issue and like I said before, I thought this was being done years ago.

 

[Revoltingest]

I vote for <Patriot>.

 

[Badran]

The differences between the 2 are that one gave secrets to a foreign country and the other gave it to the news media.

But the actions done violate the same trust an American citizen should have with his/her country.

For Snowden's case he was a worker for his government which makes his actions all the more traitorous.

Sorry if I appear harsh and vindictive but I truly find such actions horrible. The fact that Snowden finds this wrong is quite funny considering the other skeletons the government has in its closet which can be pulled out. The TSP data transference is absolutely not a big issue and like I said before, I thought this was being done years ago.

I understand the value of trust, loyalty, honor and the like, and i don't disagree with such principles nor with holding them at a high regard. At the same time, wouldn't you recognize some of that loyalty (if not in fact the bigger part) to be towards citizens?

If the government is violating the trust of the citizens, wouldn't you consider attempting to put a stop to that? Or do pledges of loyalty and placement of trust only extend to the government? I'd put the citizens above the government, obviously, since the government is only present to serve citizens (that is, of course, "ideally").

The difference between the two cases is that one of them is hurting their country while the other is doing it a service. One tips the scales in favor of another country, while one is in fact attempting to expose a weakness to his own people, the citizens of his country in order for it to be fixed.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I vote for <Patriot>.

!&#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1614;&#1605;&#1583;&#1615; &#1604;&#1604;&#1607;
Long live the Patriot Act!

 

[Revoltingest]

!&#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1614;&#1605;&#1583;&#1615; &#1604;&#1604;&#1607;
Long live the Patriot Act!

We could ditch that law if we had more kids like this...
[youtube]-Kn-fEuRB0Q[/youtube]
Revolting Children- Matilda the Musical - YouTube

 

[Sha'irullah]

I understand the value of trust, loyalty, honor and the like, and i don't disagree with such principles nor with holding them at a high regard. At the same time, wouldn't you recognize some of that loyalty (if not in fact the bigger part) to be towards citizens?

If the government is violating the trust of the citizens, wouldn't you consider attempting to put a stop to that? Or do pledges of loyalty and placement of trust only extend to the government? I'd put the citizens above the government, obviously, since the government is only present to serve citizens (that is, of course, "ideally").

The difference between the two cases is that one of them is hurting their country while the other is doing it a service. One tips the scales in favor of another country, while one is in fact attempting to expose a weakness to his own people, the citizens of his country in order for it to be fixed.

The government does many things which should be known and many things which should not.

What happened today was not a breach of trust as far as I am concerned. I understand the balance of loyalty but what Snowden was childish and he himself never altered the claims to what the government did with the TSP data received. He verified it actually, meaning the government did no more then what they claimed to be as far as the TSP data transfers claim but the rest is a whole other story.

People in the US oppose the use of having cameras on streets corners like in the UK and many other things which could benefit safety. These things are not invasive if implemented properly but anything that involves one's own information not even being leaked is evasive somehow.

TSP providers sell your phone numbers out to telemarketers only to spam people with endless amounts of calls. Comparing the two witholders of the telephony information I would say the government is more reliable as they don't broadcast your information to every marketing service in India.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Traitor. I find his actions highly despicable and hope he has the same fate as people like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

He is obviously of the lower stock in human intelligence because I knew the government kept account of phone records a long time ago. I viewed this as common fact and turns out it was not. This is nothing but the exchange of the same data phone service providers have to the government. No big deal.
If you dislike the government holding communications data then you must not like your ISP's and TSP's for sharing the exact same information. If one feels offended by this then all I can say is logic is not present in your thinking.

I completely agree. I'm a Network Administrator. I've worked for the National Gallery of Art responsible for tracking valuable artwork. When I worked there I signed those same non-disclosure agreements. When I worked for ATF designing and implementing databases I signed those same documents plus a few others in regards to my top secrect clearance. When I worked for a private company i signed these documents and a non-compete document. I now work for local government as a Network Administrator and signed these forms.....This guy is dispicable and should be found and prosecuted.

 

[Badran]

The government does many things which should be known and many things which should not.

What happened today was not a breach of trust as far as I am concerned. I understand the balance of loyalty but what Snowden was childish and he himself never altered the claims to what the government did with the TSP data received. He verified it actually, meaning the government did no more then what they claimed to be as far as the TSP data transfers claim but the rest is a whole other story.

Sorry, i'm not following. What do you mean by the rest is a whole other story?

Isn't it relevant to the judgement you're making about his actions?

People in the US oppose the use of having cameras on streets corners like in the UK and many other things which could benefit safety. These things are not invasive if implemented properly but anything that involves one's own information not even being leaked is evasive somehow.

TSP providers sell your phone numbers out to telemarketers only to spam people with endless amounts of calls. Comparing the two witholders of the telephony information I would say the government is more reliable as they don't broadcast your information to every marketing service in India.

People in the US can choose whatever they like, i can't really speak on their behalf. But the only question i raise is whether or not this is actually what they chose.

If the material Snowden leaked conveys that the government has been doing stuff the citizens have not agreed to, and are invading their privacy, i would consider that a serious violation of trust and thus more than justifying of Snowden's actions.