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Edward Snowden - traitor ?

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Sorry, i'm not following. What do you mean by the rest is a whole other story?

Isn't it relevant to the judgement you're making about his actions?



People in the US can choose whatever they like, i can't really speak on their behalf. But the only question i raise is whether or not this is actually what they chose.

If the material Snowden leaked conveys that the government has been doing stuff the citizens have not agreed to, and are invading their privacy, i would consider that a serious violation of trust and thus more than justifying to Snowden's actions.

Again, all citizens with moderate amount of knowledge know that phone companies hold this same information for months on end until termination.
The government is just viewing the same information telephony companies are looking at.
This is done with FBI searches which they ask for the set information on a certain person and this has been public.
There is actually no difference here. People just do not understand what information the government is viewing because they assume people are listening in on their conversations. It is impossible to store the data of 7 years of calls.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Again, all citizens with moderate amount of knowledge know that phone companies hold this same information for months on end until termination.
The government is just viewing the same information telephony companies are looking at.
This is done with FBI searches which they ask for the set information on a certain person and this has been public.
There is actually no difference here. People just do not understand what information the government is viewing because they assume people are listening in on their conversations. It is impossible to store the data of 7 years of calls.

1) You haven't answered my question.

2) This still in my view does not justify your comparison of his actions to those of a case where people have been found to leak critical information to another country at a time of war. It also doesn't explain your hoping for him to receive a death sentence.

You are arguing that he wasn't justified in leaking this to the media because what he leaked is supposedly just confirming what the government has declared itself to be doing, yet this still doesn't explain your reasoning as to how he qualifies for the comparison you're putting him into.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The differences between the 2 are that one gave secrets to a foreign country and the other gave it to the news media.

But the actions done violate the same trust an American citizen should have with his/her country.

Is that so?

Why should anyone trust a government that he knows to be abusive?


For Snowden's case he was a worker for his government which makes his actions all the more traitorous.

More like that is why he was in a position to expose the abuse at all, isn't it?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
...I think I might be getting a bit confused.

Is this the exposure of the PRISM project?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
The differences between the 2 are that one gave secrets to a foreign country and the other gave it to the news media.

But the actions done violate the same trust an American citizen should have with his/her country.

For Snowden's case he was a worker for his government which makes his actions all the more traitorous.

Sorry if I appear harsh and vindictive but I truly find such actions horrible. The fact that Snowden finds this wrong is quite funny considering the other skeletons the government has in its closet which can be pulled out. The TSP data transference is absolutely not a big issue and like I said before, I thought this was being done years ago.

If this was common knowledge anyway and no big deal, as you say, how can he be a traitor for talking about it?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think the American public has a right to know when its liberties are threatened by its government.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Perhaps more disturbing is that the data collected covers anything going through servers in the USA. this is virtually every countries entire communications.
The USA is also sharing this ability with some other countries (cheltenham in the UK included)
The scope of Cheltenham's abilities have always been unknown, and always will be, and may be they do not require this sort of "Help". However it has now raised questions that the politicians can no longer avoid, and they do not like it.

Is it traitorous for the American services to share personal American communication data with other countries. Or is this a simple swap deal.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I am curious of what you think of Bradley Manning. Is Manning also despicable and prosecutable?

I'm not familiar with all he and others have released. A whistleblower typically was a person who exposed someone or a group for their wrong doings. In some of these cases we have to be careful. Releasing sensitive information for the sake of releasing it is irresponsible unless you can be sure that what you're releasing shows wrong doing.

The question I have in my mind when this information is released is....will it show wrong doing or will it just be exposing a classified program. In the case of Snowden, from what we know of the program at this point, he exposed a classified program.

Before we start finger pointing it helps to get an understanding of the program. The program data mines data that's (already) being data mined by the phone company etc. It's a call log of phone numbers, dates and times.

This isn't a new program. Under the previous administration the program and others ran wild with little to no oversight and engaged in warrant-less wire taps. In order to even use this data today you must have probable cause to seek a warrant. All three branches of the government are involved and informed as well as the FISA Court. More oversight may be needed. The current administration help put some of the current checks and balances in place and welcomes any discussion and solutions to enhance privacy.

Snowden, IMO, worked for a contractor and signed various non-disclosure and non-compete agreements.....both from his company and federal government. I've signed these same documents. He broke these agreements and shared classified information. He broke the law. I could give him a pass "if" it showed that what he was exposing was unlawful but it isn't. Just because a "whistleblower" releases information doesn't mean he or she should be treated as a hero...at least not until all the facts are in.

We already have so much of our information in the biggest database of them all. You can google your name, your phone number (old and current) and even your address. I googled my name and my wife's name. I know where she works and where she lives and even her phone number. I put my name in that standard search engine and got the same results. I ran my name at superpages.com in the public records section and it showed my city, my wife's name and my age and at least 4 cities where I've lived. Even your "Social Security Number" is online. I then put my name in the search area and it showed my full name, my address, my house number as well as the longitude and latitude of my house. Click the various links and it shows your relatives. In my case it listed my daughter's full name.


Much of what we may consider personal information is floating in the digital world and part of the public record. I don't need a name. I don't need a phone number. I can take every home in my neighborhood, because they're public record, and get the name(s) of the owner, the diagram of their house, what they paid for the home and the value of the home. So with minimal effort....I can know all there is to know about a person's personal information.

Why such hoopla about the government....well, because it's the government which seems to be what's got people riled up but many of us are holding on to this nostalgic notion that we're "private" citizens. Those days are long gone and have been before you or I were ever born.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I'm not familiar with all he and others have released. A whistleblower typically was a person who exposed someone or a group for their wrong doings. In some of these cases we have to be careful. Releasing sensitive information for the sake of releasing it is irresponsible unless you can be sure that what you're releasing shows wrong doing.

The question I have in my mind when this information is released is....will it show wrong doing or will it just be exposing a classified program. In the case of Snowden, from what we know of the program at this point, he exposed a classified program.

Before we start finger pointing it helps to get an understanding of the program. The program data mines data that's (already) being data mined by the phone company etc. It's a call log of phone numbers, dates and times.

This isn't a new program. Under the previous administration the program and others ran wild with little to no oversight and engaged in warrant-less wire taps. In order to even use this data today you must have probable cause to seek a warrant. All three branches of the government are involved and informed as well as the FISA Court. More oversight may be needed. The current administration help put some of the current checks and balances in place and welcomes any discussion and solutions to enhance privacy.

Snowden, IMO, worked for a contractor and signed various non-disclosure and non-compete agreements.....both from his company and federal government. I've signed these same documents. He broke these agreements and shared classified information. He broke the law. I could give him a pass "if" it showed that what he was exposing was unlawful but it isn't. Just because a "whistleblower" releases information doesn't mean he or she should be treated as a hero...at least not until all the facts are in.

We already have so much of our information in the biggest database of them all. You can google your name, your phone number (old and current) and even your address. I googled my name and my wife's name. I know where she works and where she lives and even her phone number. I put my name in that standard search engine and got the same results. I ran my name at superpages.com in the public records section and it showed my city, my wife's name and my age and at least 4 cities where I've lived. Even your "Social Security Number" is online. I then put my name in the search area and it showed my full name, my address, my house number as well as the longitude and latitude of my house. Click the various links and it shows your relatives. In my case it listed my daughter's full name.


Much of what we may consider personal information is floating in the digital world and part of the public record. I don't need a name. I don't need a phone number. I can take every home in my neighborhood, because they're public record, and get the name(s) of the owner, the diagram of their house, what they paid for the home and the value of the home. So with minimal effort....I can know all there is to know about a person's personal information.

Why such hoopla about the government....well, because it's the government which seems to be what's got people riled up but many of us are holding on to this nostalgic notion that we're "private" citizens. Those days are long gone and have been before you or I were ever born.

Can you google your detailed phone records, personal emails, travel records, and a record of what you've been reading, writing and watching online?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Can you google your detailed phone records, personal emails, travel records, and a record of what you've been reading, writing and watching online?

Don't in each of these instances from local law enforcement to the federal government a warrant or subpoena establishing probable cause is required....even so....I'm not sure how any of these negate what I said.....not only is the majority of your personal information available online right now, including your social security number, but most of it is being sold minute by minute.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not condoning what the NSA is capable of doing. But I'm not surprised by it either.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Traitor. I find his actions highly despicable and hope he has the same fate as people like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

He is obviously of the lower stock in human intelligence because I knew the government kept account of phone records a long time ago. I viewed this as common fact and turns out it was not. This is nothing but the exchange of the same data phone service providers have to the government. No big deal.

If you dislike the government holding communications data then you must not like your ISP's and TSP's for sharing the exact same information. If one feels offended by this then all I can say is logic is not present in your thinking.

Except my ISP has reason to have my information, and my consent, and is incapable of doing anything with it.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I understand your thinking but I am really just referring to phone calls. Giving the government the same information your TSP has is no major deal. What is the difference?

Both parties know who you called and they are actually not concerned with it until something important comes up. All they have is a useless list of names and phones numbers along with call data.

As for emails and whatnot this is something I view as negative as I am not sure what sort of information they are receiving.

Why are phones any different? Even with a phone, a name, and four data points, I conclude very much about the actions of an individual without actually have heard the call at all.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
The differences between the 2 are that one gave secrets to a foreign country and the other gave it to the news media.

But the actions done violate the same trust an American citizen should have with his/her country.

For Snowden's case he was a worker for his government which makes his actions all the more traitorous.

Sorry if I appear harsh and vindictive but I truly find such actions horrible. The fact that Snowden finds this wrong is quite funny considering the other skeletons the government has in its closet which can be pulled out. The TSP data transference is absolutely not a big issue and like I said before, I thought this was being done years ago.

He wasn't a government worker. Perhaps if the NSA wasn't so huge, and spread thin, and allowing access to information via business contracts, they wouldn't have to worry so much about leaks...
 

dust1n

Zindīq
What happened today was not a breach of trust as far as I am concerned. I understand the balance of loyalty but what Snowden was childish and he himself never altered the claims to what the government did with the TSP data received. He verified it actually, meaning the government did no more then what they claimed to be as far as the TSP data transfers claim but the rest is a whole other story.

"The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.
The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.

Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.

The disclosure is likely to reignite longstanding debates in the US over the proper extent of the government's domestic spying powers.

Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice on a massive scale under President Obama."

NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily | World news | The Guardian

Continue the story to see how effectively one can determine much about a person based on phone call behaviors, all without use of a warrant.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Don't in each of these instances from local law enforcement to the federal government a warrant or subpoena establishing probable cause is required....even so....I'm not sure how any of these negate what I said.....not only is the majority of your personal information available online right now, including your social security number, but most of it is being sold minute by minute.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not condoning what the NSA is capable of doing. But I'm not surprised by it either.

See previous story regarding metadata usage without a warrant.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Don't in each of these instances from local law enforcement to the federal government a warrant or subpoena establishing probable cause is required....even so....I'm not sure how any of these negate what I said.....not only is the majority of your personal information available online right now, including your social security number, but most of it is being sold minute by minute.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not condoning what the NSA is capable of doing. But I'm not surprised by it either.

I admit I haven't read as much about this issue as it would take to form a really sound opinion, but as I understand it the NSA can request detailed phone and internet records, including your email metadata and browsing history, as well as any of your personal information held by companies like google, twitter and Facebook. They need to get approval from somebody or other, but since they've been at it they have filed a few thousand requests for approval for total snooping authority and not one has been denied. That's not very "judicial", IMO, unless your idea of a judge is an automaton with two rubber "OK!" stamps for hands.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
All those Germans who tried to assassinate Hitler can readily be considered traitors depending on how one understands the term.

Sometimes we need 'traitors' in order to work for the best interests of both the country and it's people. I think in large part it comes down to what you understand the pledge of allegiance and the various vows and oaths to mean - whether it be obedience to a government or allegiance to a nation. They are two very different things.
 
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apophenia

Well-Known Member
Then there's the fact that all of the information in question can be stolen and sold, or accessed by China's Department of Hacking, etc etc.

There is no secure system.

So does it make sense to deny access to this data to the FBI/CIA/NSA when criminals and other governments probably have it or can get it anyway ? :shrug:

lulzsec-660x412.png




"Laughing at your security since 2011"
 
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