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Egyptian exodus proof or slavery?

PureX

Veteran Member
To me if it did not happen then the whole thing is no more than a fabrication and lie. And I guess that is how you feel about it also.
Not at all!

Fiction is far better at revealing the truth than the facts will ever be. I am always puzzled by people who take your extreme position, as it's incredibly disrespectful to the people that created those stories and their understanding of the world and of God. You don't call Shakespeare's plays "a lie" do you? Or consider the Star Wars Trilogy pointless, worthless nonsense. Or label, "To Kill A Mockingbird" devoid of any truth or insight just because it's fiction. So why do you devalue biblical fiction so quickly and fully? Especially when so many people have discovered so many deep spiritual truths in reading those stories? And still do.
The interesting thing is that it looks like the remains of non slave Hebrews have been found at Goshen (where the story says Israel stayed while in Egypt) and at the right time (given the Biblical dating for the Exodus) And given that dating the conquest remains in Canaan agree with the story of the conquest in Joshua.
Of course there is the thing about the story being unbelievable because of the miracles, the usual naturalistic way of reading such stories.
There is also the very real possibility that a lot of people are seeing the "evidence" to support what they want it to support, and ignoring the many other possible explanations. When it comes to religious belief, there is a LOT of that sort of thing going on in the world of archeology. And it tends to muddy up the waters so much that it becomes impossible to determine what anything really means.

Fortunately, for me, none of that even matters. The truth of the story does not rest on any archeological evidence, any more than the truth of any other story does. The truth is already in us. All the stories do is help us to recognize it and appreciate it. And convey it to others.
If it is not true does the story have any value and meaning apart from being an origins myth?
Of course it does. It's a story of faith in action. About faith persisted in. About slavery being both unjust and 'unnatural'. It's even about how some people will become so confused and frightened by freedom that they will run back to their prison cells and lock themselves in. It's an amazing story about the many aspects of slavery and freedom and faith and fear and ego and humility and patience and persistence and so on. And you would throw all that away just because it's a fictional story??? I think that's wildly irrational, and very sad. Because it's the fictional aspect of it that makes it so applicable to so many people. If it were just about the fact that God saved those people in that time and that place and that circumstance, then it doesn't mean much for the rest of us, does it. Because there aren't going to be any firey pillars or parting of the seas, for us.
But that is the way many people believe and see it.
I feel sad for their horrible 'artlessness'.
To believe there is a possibility for a creator God to exist then people who say that they would believe if there was evidence, should really say that the OT and NT stories could possibly be true and not that they are unbelievable-------------thereby eliminating and denying the actual evidence.
Sadly, they have completely missed the point and the value of the story. Like throwing the painting of a beautiful sunset away because it's "just a painting". But then, isn't that kind of what you're doing? I mean, you're looking at a painting of a beautiful sunset and insisting that it's a real sunset. And when someone points out that it's just a painting you refuse to accept it. You say, "if it's not a real sunset then it's just a LIE!". But it's not a lie. It's a representation of the truth. That in many ways helps us see the truth better than the real thing.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
That sounds like an extreme position to have. How did you arrive there? Is it because of something you know about Egypt and slavery or because of archaeological views on the conquest of Canaan and the origin of the Jewish people?
Slavery in ancient Egypt - Wikipedia.


There was an archaeological sight found where the builders of the pyramid lived as a military. It was all young men, it was a military-type job where they committed 10 years of their life to build the pyramids. They even had pictures of surgeries done on the hand
by Drs. it depicted the military quarters and all.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Is there proof of the Egyptian Exodus the story of Moses, the desert, and the red sea, is there any chariots found in the red sea? What's the Red sea deal anyways, I always heard that Moses' group got through the Red Sea, and the Egyptians got stuck, but some say the Red Sea was so shallow anyways that it didn't make sense.

What about the Pharoah, the leader of Egypt, what has been written by Egyptians about him?

Proof of slavery? Have you seen the Pyramids at Giza? :)
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
Yes the workforce seems to have been a mix of slaves and others.
That does not say anything against Israel being there initially as non slaves and then being turned into slaves because of their increase in population and the desire of Egypt to control them somehow so they did not become too much of a threat to the regime.
The bible does not say anything like they being made slaves. The new king reigned maybe only 10 to 20 years. The increase in burden is converse of reduction in wages. Nothing to do with slavery.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Is there proof of the Egyptian Exodus the story of Moses, the desert, and the red sea, is there any chariots found in the red sea? What's the Red sea deal anyways, I always heard that Moses' group got through the Red Sea, and the Egyptians got stuck, but some say the Red Sea was so shallow anyways that it didn't make sense.

What about the Pharoah, the leader of Egypt, what has been written by Egyptians about him?

Exodus is a myth from start to finish.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The bible does not say anything like they being made slaves. The new king reigned maybe only 10 to 20 years. The increase in burden is converse of reduction in wages. Nothing to do with slavery.

Moses was 80 years old when he spoke to Pharaoh and we don't know how long Israel had been slaves before Moses was born.
Read Exodus 1:8-14 and you will see that Israel had been made into slaves and for what reason.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Is there proof of the Egyptian Exodus the story of Moses, the desert, and the red sea, is there any chariots found in the red sea? What's the Red sea deal anyways, I always heard that Moses' group got through the Red Sea, and the Egyptians got stuck, but some say the Red Sea was so shallow anyways that it didn't make sense.

What about the Pharoah, the leader of Egypt, what has been written by Egyptians about him?


No evidence. It is considered a national foundation myth.

NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Archeology of the Hebrew Bible | PBS
EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY ISRAELITES
Q: The Bible chronology puts Moses much later in time, around 1450 B.C.E. Is there archeological evidence for Moses and the mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of Israelites described in the Bible?

Dever: We have no direct archeological evidence. "Moses" is an Egyptian name. Some of the other names in the narratives are Egyptian, and there are genuine Egyptian elements. But no one has found a text or an artifact in Egypt itself or even in the Sinai that has any direct connection. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story.

Carol Meyers, an archeologist and professor of religion at Duke University,
EVIDENCE OF THE EXODUS
Q: You and other scholars point out that there isn't evidence outside the Bible, in historic documents and the archeological record, for a mass migration from Egypt involving hundreds of thousands of people. But it may be plausible that there was a much smaller exodus, an exodus of people originally from the land of Canaan who were returning to it. Is that right?

Meyers: Yes. Despite all the ways in which the exodus narratives in the Bible seem to be non-historic, something about the overall pattern can, in fact, be related to what we know from historical sources was going on at the end of the Late Bronze Age [circa 1200 B.C.E.], around when the Bible's chronology places the story of departure from Egypt.

Now, what is the evidence? First of all, during this period there likely were a lot of people from the land of Canaan, from regions of the eastern Mediterranean, in Egypt. Sometimes they were taken there as slaves. The local kings of the city-states in Canaan would offer slaves as tribute to the pharaohs in order to remain in their good graces. This is documented in the Amarna letters discovered in Egypt. So we know that there were people taken to Egypt as slaves.

There were also traders from the eastern Mediterranean who went to Egypt for commercial reasons. And there also probably were people from Canaan who went to Egypt during periods of extended drought and famine, as is reported in the Bible for Abraham and Sarah.

So Canaanites went to Egypt for a variety of reasons. They were generally assimilated—after a generation or two they became Egyptians. There is almost no evidence that those people left. But there are one or two Egyptian documents that record the flight of a handful of people who had been brought to Egypt for one reason or other and who didn't want to stay there.

Now, there is no direct evidence that such people were connected with the exodus narrative in the Bible. But in our western historical imagination, as we try to recreate the past, it's certainly worth considering that some of them, somehow, for some reason that we can never understand, maybe because life was so difficult for them in Egypt, thought that life would be greener than in the pastures that they had left.

And it's possible that a charismatic leader, a Moses, rallied a few of those people and urged them to make the difficult and traumatic and dangerous journey across the forbidding terrain of the Sinai Peninsula, back to what their collective memory maintained was a promised land.

ORIGINS OF THE ISRAELITES
Q: Do you think that these people returning to Canaan met up with other Canaanites in the hill country and became the people of Israel?

Meyers: The emergence of ancient Israel in the highlands of Palestine is shrouded in clouds and mystery. We'll really never know the whole story. We can only conjecture how the inhabitants of new settlements in the highlands, in places where there never had been any settlements before, somehow began to identify with each other. And, at least as I see it, they could have met with people who had made the trek across the Sinai Peninsula.

What was it that brought them together and gave them a new national identity, a new ethnicity? Many scholars, including me, would search in the theological realm. There is a belief in the Bible that the dream of escaping from Egypt and returning to an ancestral homeland could not have happened without supernatural intervention, divine intervention. And the group that had come from Egypt felt that one particular god, whom they called Yahweh, was responsible for this miracle of escape.

They spread the word to the highlanders, who themselves were migrants into the highlands, who perhaps had escaped from the tyranny of the Canaanite city-states or from an unsettled life as pastoralists across the Jordan River. And the idea of a god that represented freedom—freedom for people to keep the fruits of their own labor—this was a message that was so powerful that it brought people together and gave them a new kind of identity, which eventually became known by the term Israel.

REMEMBERING THE EXODUS
Q: So even though most of the early Israelites had not themselves made the exodus from Egypt, they adopt this story as part of their heritage.

Meyers: Yes. While very few Israelites may have actually made the trek across Sinai, it becomes the national story of all Israelites and is celebrated in all kinds of ways. Their agricultural festivals become celebrations of freedom, for instance. Many aspects of a new culture emerge and are linked with the "memories" of exodus.

The people who made the exodus from Egypt remember the experience, relive it, recreate it in rituals. They pass their rituals on to others, to future generations and to other people. We do this in our own American lives: Very few of us have ancestors who came over on the Mayflower, and yet that story has become part of our national story.
Q: And it's a theme that still resonates with us today.

Meyers: Absolutely. The theme of the exodus is an archetype in not only the Bible but in western culture in general. Even though it may be rooted in some cultural memory experienced by only a few people, it became a way of looking at the world that would have great power for generations and millennia to come—the idea that human beings should be free to determine the course of their own lives, to be able to work and enjoy the rewards of the work of their own hands and their own minds.

These are very powerful ideas that resonate in the human spirit. And Exodus gives narrative reality to those ideas. It would be compelling for peoples all over the world, wherever people find themselves subjected to domination and would like to live their lives in some other kind of way.

I think it's no accident that the founders of our own country, the United States, identified very strongly with the story of the Israelite exodus from Egypt. They felt that, in crossing the Atlantic Ocean and leaving the oppressive conditions of various European countries, they were coming to a place where they would be free from domination, where they would have religious freedom especially. And in the mythology of the colonial period in the United States, the crossing of the Atlantic somehow merged with the idea of the crossing of the Red Sea or Reed Sea of the Israelites. I think that the first seal of the United States actually depicted that kind of crossing.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
There was an archaeological sight found where the builders of the pyramid lived as a military. It was all young men, it was a military-type job where they committed 10 years of their life to build the pyramids. They even had pictures of surgeries done on the hand
by Drs. it depicted the military quarters and all.

The slavery that Israel was subject to was not this. Ex 1:8-14 describes the Israelite slavery and it appears it was not building the pyramids or temples.
Here are a couple of videos about archaeological finds in Goshen in Egypt (where Israel was) and how they point to Israel having been there.
It is best to start watching after the guy who does the introductions finishes speaking.


 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Not at all!

Fiction is far better at revealing the truth than the facts will ever be. I am always puzzled by people who take your extreme position, as it's incredibly disrespectful to the people that created those stories and their understanding of the world and of God. You don't call Shakespeare's plays "a lie" do you? Or consider the Star Wars Trilogy pointless, worthless nonsense. Or label, "To Kill A Mockingbird" devoid of any truth or insight just because it's fiction. So why do you devalue biblical fiction so quickly and fully? Especially when so many people have discovered so many deep spiritual truths in reading those stories? And still do.

It's not really an extreme position for a Christian or Jew to believe the historical narratives in the OT. It could be said to be disrespectful of the writers to say the stories were not true, especially when the reason is that they contain miracles that God did.
People find so much deep spiritual truth in the stories because they are true. Otherwise you are saying that people have made up spiritual truth from their own imagination.
Star Wars, To Kill a Mockingbird etc are meant to be fiction and so are just as good when we see them as fiction. The Bible historical narratives are about God and His relationship with Israel etc and if it is only from someone's imagination, then it is people making stuff up about God and so tell us nothing real about God.

There is also the very real possibility that a lot of people are seeing the "evidence" to support what they want it to support, and ignoring the many other possible explanations. When it comes to religious belief, there is a LOT of that sort of thing going on in the world of archeology. And it tends to muddy up the waters so much that it becomes impossible to determine what anything really means.

Fortunately, for me, none of that even matters. The truth of the story does not rest on any archeological evidence, any more than the truth of any other story does. The truth is already in us. All the stories do is help us to recognize it and appreciate it. And convey it to others.

Muddying of the waters in archaeology in relation to the Exodus seems to have come from both mistakes in interpretation of both the Bible and the Archaeology.
For me the truth of the story does not depend on archaeological interpretations but for you it is just a hidden truth in a fiction that is not dependant on the archaeology and that says nothing about God.

If it were just about the fact that God saved those people in that time and that place and that circumstance, then it doesn't mean much for the rest of us, does it. Because there aren't going to be any firey pillars or parting of the seas, for us.

You obviously see truths in the story even if you make it fictional. If you think you cannot see those things if the story is true then changing it from fact to fiction must change the story and make it just about people.
It is not JUST about the fact that God saved those people but that is something you eliminate by making it fictional.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
Moses was 80 years old when he spoke to Pharaoh and we don't know how long Israel had been slaves before Moses was born.
Read Exodus 1:8-14 and you will see that Israel had been made into slaves and for what reason.
There is no slavery here. In fact, these verses tell of the pharaoh being afraid of the Jews. Taskmasters cannot be extended to slavery. It only indicates reduction of wages.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
It's not really an extreme position for a Christian or Jew to believe the historical narratives in the OT. It could be said to be disrespectful of the writers to say the stories were not true, especially when the reason is that they contain miracles that God did.
People find so much deep spiritual truth in the stories because they are true. Otherwise you are saying that people have made up spiritual truth from their own imagination.
Star Wars, To Kill a Mockingbird etc are meant to be fiction and so are just as good when we see them as fiction. The Bible historical narratives are about God and His relationship with Israel etc and if it is only from someone's imagination, then it is people making stuff up about God and so tell us nothing real about God.



Muddying of the waters in archaeology in relation to the Exodus seems to have come from both mistakes in interpretation of both the Bible and the Archaeology.
For me the truth of the story does not depend on archaeological interpretations but for you it is just a hidden truth in a fiction that is not dependant on the archaeology and that says nothing about God.



You obviously see truths in the story even if you make it fictional. If you think you cannot see those things if the story is true then changing it from fact to fiction must change the story and make it just about people.
It is not JUST about the fact that God saved those people but that is something you eliminate by making it fictional.
Why start from a contradiction between theology and archaeology? Let us look at other interpretations as well as locations for exodus.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
No evidence. It is considered a national foundation myth.

NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Archeology of the Hebrew Bible | PBS
EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY ISRAELITES
Q: The Bible chronology puts Moses much later in time, around 1450 B.C.E. Is there archeological evidence for Moses and the mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of Israelites described in the Bible?

Dever: We have no direct archeological evidence. "Moses" is an Egyptian name. Some of the other names in the narratives are Egyptian, and there are genuine Egyptian elements. But no one has found a text or an artifact in Egypt itself or even in the Sinai that has any direct connection. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story.

Carol Meyers, an archeologist and professor of religion at Duke University,
EVIDENCE OF THE EXODUS
Q: You and other scholars point out that there isn't evidence outside the Bible, in historic documents and the archeological record, for a mass migration from Egypt involving hundreds of thousands of people. But it may be plausible that there was a much smaller exodus, an exodus of people originally from the land of Canaan who were returning to it. Is that right?

Meyers: Yes. Despite all the ways in which the exodus narratives in the Bible seem to be non-historic, something about the overall pattern can, in fact, be related to what we know from historical sources was going on at the end of the Late Bronze Age [circa 1200 B.C.E.], around when the Bible's chronology places the story of departure from Egypt.

Now, what is the evidence? First of all, during this period there likely were a lot of people from the land of Canaan, from regions of the eastern Mediterranean, in Egypt. Sometimes they were taken there as slaves. The local kings of the city-states in Canaan would offer slaves as tribute to the pharaohs in order to remain in their good graces. This is documented in the Amarna letters discovered in Egypt. So we know that there were people taken to Egypt as slaves.

There were also traders from the eastern Mediterranean who went to Egypt for commercial reasons. And there also probably were people from Canaan who went to Egypt during periods of extended drought and famine, as is reported in the Bible for Abraham and Sarah.

So Canaanites went to Egypt for a variety of reasons. They were generally assimilated—after a generation or two they became Egyptians. There is almost no evidence that those people left. But there are one or two Egyptian documents that record the flight of a handful of people who had been brought to Egypt for one reason or other and who didn't want to stay there.

Now, there is no direct evidence that such people were connected with the exodus narrative in the Bible. But in our western historical imagination, as we try to recreate the past, it's certainly worth considering that some of them, somehow, for some reason that we can never understand, maybe because life was so difficult for them in Egypt, thought that life would be greener than in the pastures that they had left.

And it's possible that a charismatic leader, a Moses, rallied a few of those people and urged them to make the difficult and traumatic and dangerous journey across the forbidding terrain of the Sinai Peninsula, back to what their collective memory maintained was a promised land.

ORIGINS OF THE ISRAELITES
Q: Do you think that these people returning to Canaan met up with other Canaanites in the hill country and became the people of Israel?

Meyers: The emergence of ancient Israel in the highlands of Palestine is shrouded in clouds and mystery. We'll really never know the whole story. We can only conjecture how the inhabitants of new settlements in the highlands, in places where there never had been any settlements before, somehow began to identify with each other. And, at least as I see it, they could have met with people who had made the trek across the Sinai Peninsula.

What was it that brought them together and gave them a new national identity, a new ethnicity? Many scholars, including me, would search in the theological realm. There is a belief in the Bible that the dream of escaping from Egypt and returning to an ancestral homeland could not have happened without supernatural intervention, divine intervention. And the group that had come from Egypt felt that one particular god, whom they called Yahweh, was responsible for this miracle of escape.

They spread the word to the highlanders, who themselves were migrants into the highlands, who perhaps had escaped from the tyranny of the Canaanite city-states or from an unsettled life as pastoralists across the Jordan River. And the idea of a god that represented freedom—freedom for people to keep the fruits of their own labor—this was a message that was so powerful that it brought people together and gave them a new kind of identity, which eventually became known by the term Israel.

REMEMBERING THE EXODUS
Q: So even though most of the early Israelites had not themselves made the exodus from Egypt, they adopt this story as part of their heritage.

Meyers: Yes. While very few Israelites may have actually made the trek across Sinai, it becomes the national story of all Israelites and is celebrated in all kinds of ways. Their agricultural festivals become celebrations of freedom, for instance. Many aspects of a new culture emerge and are linked with the "memories" of exodus.

The people who made the exodus from Egypt remember the experience, relive it, recreate it in rituals. They pass their rituals on to others, to future generations and to other people. We do this in our own American lives: Very few of us have ancestors who came over on the Mayflower, and yet that story has become part of our national story.
Q: And it's a theme that still resonates with us today.

Meyers: Absolutely. The theme of the exodus is an archetype in not only the Bible but in western culture in general. Even though it may be rooted in some cultural memory experienced by only a few people, it became a way of looking at the world that would have great power for generations and millennia to come—the idea that human beings should be free to determine the course of their own lives, to be able to work and enjoy the rewards of the work of their own hands and their own minds.

These are very powerful ideas that resonate in the human spirit. And Exodus gives narrative reality to those ideas. It would be compelling for peoples all over the world, wherever people find themselves subjected to domination and would like to live their lives in some other kind of way.

I think it's no accident that the founders of our own country, the United States, identified very strongly with the story of the Israelite exodus from Egypt. They felt that, in crossing the Atlantic Ocean and leaving the oppressive conditions of various European countries, they were coming to a place where they would be free from domination, where they would have religious freedom especially. And in the mythology of the colonial period in the United States, the crossing of the Atlantic somehow merged with the idea of the crossing of the Red Sea or Reed Sea of the Israelites. I think that the first seal of the United States actually depicted that kind of crossing.
The very fact that there is admittedly no direct evidence and the case rests on circumstantial evidence leads us to examine other interpretations as well as locations for the exodus narrative.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
There was an archaeological sight found where the builders of the pyramid lived as a military. It was all young men, it was a military-type job where they committed 10 years of their life to build the pyramids. They even had pictures of surgeries done on the hand
by Drs. it depicted the military quarters and all.
Military quarters does not mean slavery.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The bible does not say anything like they being made slaves.
Deuteronomy 15:15

Screenshot_20220824_084028.jpg


Strong's Hebrew: 5650. עָ֫בֶד (ebed) -- slave, servant
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
The primary meaning about 350 times is servant, not slave.
attendants (1), bondage (2), male (24), male servant (7), male servants (5), male slaves (1), officers (1), official (2), Servant (6), servant (332), servant's (4), servant* (1), servants (353), servants' (2), servants* (12), slave (25), slave's (1), slave* (4), slavery (11), slaves (19), slaves* (8).
So we need to look at the context to determine what it may mean here.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Christians claim slaves built the pyramids, these military quarters claimed they built the pyramids.

The Bible does not tell us that Israelites in Egypt built the pyramids. If Christians say that slaves built the pyramids then that probably comes from the ignorance of those Christians.
History and the Bible do tell us of the existence of slavery in Egypt however and that Israelites in Egypt were made into slaves by the Government and forced to do hard labour.
 
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