Egyptian exodus proof or slavery?

[Ehav4Ever]

• Religion: Torath Mosheh means your religion is Torah Moses (what is religion compare to spirituality, is it court of spirituality, is that what religion means?)

In ancient Hebrew there was no term that means what "religion" and "spirituality" means in English. The following article does a good job of explaining the concept of what I mean.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

• Mosheh means Moses

• Mosheh ben-Amram means Moses son of Amram

The English name "Moses" is derived from an attempted Greek transliteration of Mosheh. If I remember correctly, ancient Greek didn't have a (sh) sound thus when they "transliterated" for this sound the used an (s) and then another (s) at the end.

Yet, conceptually speaking when modern Westerns hear the name Moses they think of:

In comparison, when dealing with what historically an Israeli named Mosheh ben-Amram would have been like this is what would be a more accurate approximation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

• Nevi'im (prophet)

Nevi'im (נביאים) is a plural noun. If one were to try and come up with the shortest way to translate it into English, one could use the term prophets (plural). Yet, the Torath Mosheh Jewish definition of the term has a longer meaning than the word prophet conveys in English.

• Everyone heard and saw Hashem.

The more accurate way to put it based on the Hebrew Torah and Torath Mosheh Jewish sources would be:

All Israelis and non-Israels who were at Mount Sinai:

• Heard the voice that Hashem created for them to hear.
• Saw the words of Hashem written in air like fire or lightning.
• Yet, none of them actually saw Hashem since Hashem has no form or physical body/presence/etc.
• Further, they all experienced the above at different levels, similar to the example I gave earlier.

Ehav4Ever wrote earlier:

"To give an example, there is a Torath Mosheh Jewish source that describes the differences like this. It was AS IF Mosheh ben-Amram dealt with Hashem while looking through 1 unclear lense. Mosheh ben-Amram understood this and recognized that there was an unclear lense between him and his understanding of Hashem. The other (נביאים) "Nevi'im" dealt with Hashem AS IF they were looking through 15 or more unclear lenses, depending on their situation. Unlike Mosheh ben-Amram they did have the ability to determine that there were 15 or more unclear lenses between them and their understanding of Hashem. They simply understood what was basically necessary for themselves and for their generation of Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews."
​

• However due to overwhelm, everyone chosen Mosheh to continue for them.

• So Mosheh continue and was in direct communication with Hashem

Correct, all All Israelis and non-Israels who were at Mount Sinai elected that Mosheh ben-Amram, from that point going forward, communicate directly with Hashem because they were all overwhelmed by he experience.

• So Mosheh wasn't a Nevi'im compare to others - because Mosheh was in direct communication with Hashem

Correct, also at any time he wanted.

• Nevi'im aren't in direct communication with Hashem because limited communicating through dreams/semi-awake and sleep states

Correct, also they could only receive this situation from Hashem a) when they were prepared for it, b) when Hashem was willing to give it to them, and c) they were always overwhelmed by it when it completed. Mosheh ben-Amram was never overwhelmed by it.

• So Irvith means people with Mosheh, this also includes anyone who's not of zera of Abraham as they too were with Mosheh that's what Irvith means, am I understanding this correctly?

No, Ivrith is how you correctly transliterate the term (עברית) which is one of the names of the language of Ivrim, Israelis, Jews, and Samaritans. The term Ivrim is how you translate the term (עבריים) or (עיבריים) which was a term used to describe Avraham ben-Terahh (Abraham), his direct geneology, and all of those who attached themselves to the Torah that Avraham and his descendents held by. It only included those not descended from Avraham (the zera you mentioned) if they held by the Torah that he received for his generation.

• so when people understanding word Hebrew they're thinking only zera of Abraham.

• Yet Irvith means people with Mosheh (Moses) and has nothing to do with zera of Abraham, am I comprehending this correctly?

No. In modern English the term "Hebrew" is sometimes used to describe the following:

1. Ivrim
2. The Ivrim's language
3. The ancient Israeli language and people
4. The ancestors of modern day Jews
5. People who within the last 100 years started calling themselves "Hebrew Israelites"
6. One version of a language that some scholars "theorize" was a Canaanite language.

I hope that helps.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Consider though that IF my characterization was false, even slightly, you would be able to immediately prove it false without hesitation. Again, my charicterization is based on your own words.



Incorrect. That is not how that works. The discussion was already done. Besides, I addressed all of your points. You don't have to like what I provided. You are free to conclude whatever you want about the obviously extinct people you are talking about.

Now that we are clear that you are using a Christian basis and, as you stated yourself, you are not an expert in Judaism and you are not an expert in the Hebrew language you can continue to post your theories now that we have clearly identified what they are and where you got them from.

Lastly, you are under no requirement to accept anything that has been in the possesion of Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews for thousands of years. You can accept whatever form of English bible and god that you like.

Let us rest here for now. Thanks.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Yet Irvith means people with Mosheh (Moses) and has nothing to do with zera of Abraham, am I comprehending this correctly?

Good point. But the counter position would be that those that have been accepted into the Jewish religion are deemed to be Zera. Otherwise converted Jews and also offspring of non-Jewish women would be excluded from Zera.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

CC also appears feeding our spirit heart, (burn fire) we can include this too along with light sound.

YES. YES. YES.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Let us rest here for now. Thanks.

No problem. Enjoy.

 

[River Sea]

YES. YES. YES.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala however I notice as I get into religion (not saying I agree or disagree with the religion) I tend to move away from light, isn't that odd., I move away from light when I get into religion, yet it's fascinating religion is - but I notice this. Is it the fascination does what, ok something to look at why this is?

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
from @Ehav4Ever I learn the name Hebrew means dusty dirty, so what was happening in Panphychism during that time when people put down Hebrews (dusty dirty)

that's why @Ehav4Ever came up with the name lvrith is to remove association dirty dusty, so @Ehav4Ever found a name in ancient scroll to replace Hebrew dusty dirty with lvrith?

I snip video

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I learn the name Hebrew means dusty dirty, so what was happening in Panphychism during that time when people put down Hebrews (dusty dirty)

Greetings. Correction to what you wrote. This is what actually is stated in the video.

In comparison, the Egyptians had a different word to describe anyone from the Levant region and beyond who were foreign to the Egyptians.

Thus, Ivri is a word native to Yisraelis/Israelis/Jews. The term Hyksos or Habiru is a different word native to the Egyptians and others.

that's why Ehav4Ever came up with the name lvrith is to remove association dirty dusty, so Ehav4Ever found a name in ancient scroll to replace Hebrew dusty dirty with lvrith?

Correction. Ehav4Ever did not create the term "Ivri". "Ivri" is the correct way to "tansliterate" the term (עברי - עיברי) found in ancient Yisraeli/Israeli/Jewish texts, as shown above.

Also, concerning transliteration:

I hope that helps.

 

[River Sea]

I tried to look up the seven points you made earlier. I am not sure if I reached them. I am giving my responses to those where I could find your comment (other than those that only gave video links). I have marked the discussion as “EV” and “BJ.” I request that you may kindly consider and reply to each point.

EV2. Oral traditions say the color was red.

BJ2: Oral traditions are not Word of God. These have been made after the Exile when the original geography was lost to memory and Indus geography was transposed to West Asia.

We find that 34 places listed in the endnote are mentioned in both the pre- and post-Exodus narratives of the Bible (Ai, Assyria, Avith, Beersheba, Bethel, Canaan, Dothan, Edom, Egypt, Gerar, Gilead, Goshen, Havilah, Hebron, Jordan, Kadesh, Kiriath Arba, Luz, Mahanaim, Midian, Moab, Moreh, Moriah, Negev, Paran, Penuel, Philistine, Yam Suph (Reed Sea), Seir, Shechem, Shur, Succoth, Zeboim and Zoar). Our hypothesis is that the pre-Exodus events were located in the Indus Valley and the post-Exodus events were located in Yisrael. The mention of these 34 places in both the narratives could be explained by postulating that the Hebrews carried names of these places from the Indus Valley and gave them to certain places in Yisrael that now carry these names. We see that migrants frequently give names of their home locations to their host locations. For example, the names Liverpool, London, and York have been carried from the United Kingdom and given to Liverpool in New South Wales, Australia; London in Ontario, Canada; and New York City in the United States.

In this same manner we suggest that the Hebrews gave the name “Aravalli” of the mountain in the Indus Valley, modified as “Ararat,” to the mountain in Turkey that carries that name today. They gave the name “Meru,” modified as “Moriah,” to the Temple Mount at Jerusalem. They gave the name “Yamuna,” modified as “Jordan,” to the river of Yisrael that carries this name today.

At the same time, 27 places listed in the endnote are mentioned only in the pre-Exodus narratives of the Bible and not mentioned in the post-Exodus narratives (Abel Mizraim, Admah,* Atad, Beer Lahai Roi, Bela, Eder, Elam, Ellasar, Galeed, Gomorrah,* Haran,* Machpelah, Mamre, Pau, Padan Aram,* Peniel, Rehoboth,* River of Egypt,* Shinar,* Siddim, Sin,* Sinai,* Sitnah, Sodom,* Tidal, Ur of the Chaldeans,* Zeboim* and Zin.* Place names marked with asterisk are mentioned in the post-Exodus narrative always alluding to the pre-Exodus events). These include important places like Sodom, Gomorrah, Siddim, and Sinai. This is surprising because the Hebrews travelled frequently through the areas where these places are allegedly located in Yisrael. They would have passed through these places after reaching Yisrael and could not have but noticed the existence of these places. For example, Sodom is allegedly located on the banks of the Dead Sea in Yisrael. The Hebrews passed through this area many times after they reached Yisrael. They would have remembered the existence of Sodom here. But we do not find them mentioning this city in their post-Exodus narratives as a living city. All references to Sodom in the post-Exodus narrative invariably refer to the events that took place here before the Exodus took place.

This leads us to suggest that, unlike the earlier list of 34 places, the migrants did not give the names of these 27 places to places in Yisrael. The absence of mention of these cities in the post-Exodus narratives as living places suggests that these were located at a place other than Yisrael, possibly in the Indus Valley.

>>> Please paste this thread and reply to this point here so that I can keep track.

xxx

EV3

BJ3: There is no statement of the Nile becoming red. Nile is the defining feature of Egypt. The first reference appears to be such a geographical indicator. The reference to blood is not related to water. Further, we have to make a comparative assessment:

Geography 1 Flood Waters. MP (Mesopotamia): No evidence of flood waters staying for 150 days. IV (Indus Valley): Bowl-like structure near Jalore could hold waters for 150 days.

Geography 2 Distance between Flood area and Ararat traversable by boat: MP: Ararat Mountains are located 600-1000 km from the flood area. Aravalli mountains located 150 km from the flood area.

Archaeology: MP: Evidence for habitation at 8000 BCE. Evidence of flood at 3000 BCE. IV: Floods on Luni River started at 3000 BCE.

Names: MP: No name parallel to Noah. IV: The name “Ararat” not found in ancient texts. IV: “Noah” is written as “Noach” which is then also written as “Manowach.” “Manowach” and “Manu” both have the same two consonants “M” and “N.” Ararat=Aravalli. The name Jalore of the place where the flood took place means “city of water.”

Literature: MP: Gilgamesh tells of the Flood in Dilmun that is identified with the Indus Valley by Kramer. No flood tale, to my knowledge, in Sumeric literature. IV: A flood took place at the time of Vaivaswat Manu. He was saved in a boat with 7 persons.

xxx

EV4

The ability for water, in Egypt at a specific time, to turn into blood, at a very specific time in history, for the sake of what we called in Hebrew (עשר מכות) "Eser Makkot" is one of those exceptions.

BJ4: There is no parallel natural event in Egypt.



xxx

EV4A: Thus, Jewish sources describe that even in when a Mitzri and a Yisraeli were in the same area for the Mitzri it was very much (דם) and for the Yisraeli it was (מים).

BJ4A: “Soources” are not Word of God.

xxx

EV4B: Also, very important to note the word (דם) does not mean "still or stagnant" the three letter root (ד-מ-ה) that (דם) comes from means "resemble" and by some is considered to be a Gradational Varient of the roots (ד-ו-מ) and (ד-מ-מ) which "can" mean quiet based on thier grammer and structure.

BJ4B: The word dam <01818> has its origin in damam <01826> which means “silence 3, silent 2, die 2, kept silent 2, still 2, keeps quiet 1, Lament 1, Patiently wait 1, Stay 1, Stay put 1, quiet 1, stop 1, stopping to rest 1, stood still 1, speechless 1, unceasingly 1, killed 1.” The interpretation of “dam” as “blood” seems to come from flow of blood becoming stagnant i.e., death.

xxx

BJ4C: A peculiarity of the Indus valley is that a major river named Hakra shifted it's course from west to east. The western course became stagnant pools. Thus, six of the 10 plagues are related to shortage or purification of water.

EV4C: Actually, that is an English reading. It is not what the Hebrew text says. Even the word "plague" is not what the Hebrew text states took place. There are other places where water becomes stagnent and that is not a peculiar thing to happen in one location.


BJ4C: Please consider six of the 10 plagues are related to shortage or putrification of water.

xxx

BJ4D: But we have to show evidence of stagnant water in Egypt.

@oldbadger check this out. Look at the detail.

I think this was when @Bharat Jhunjhunwala and @Ehav4Ever were going back and fourth in discussion

 

[River Sea]

Yam Suph (Reed Sea)

@oldbadger @Bharat Jhunjhunwala Reed Sea

Yam Suph (Reed Sea)

@oldbadger @Bharat Jhunjhunwala Reed Sea

Dead Sea in Yisrael

@GoodAttention Is the Dead Sea not fertile? Could fertile also explain water, or could a lack of fertile, as the word dead, explain water?

 

[River Sea]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
from @Ehav4Ever I learn the name Hebrew means dusty dirty, so what was happening in Panphychism during that time when people put down Hebrews (dusty dirty)

@oldbadger This is when I learned Hebrew means dusty dirty. Maybe @Ehav4Ever can re-explain this about dusty dirty. Will you please re-explain @Ehav4Ever ?

@Ehav4Ever was it a put down when calling Hebrews dusty dirty? Or was it not a put down?

 

[Riders]

Well it's been awhile sense I've looked at this thread. Howeve
Is there any hard proof of an Egyptian tribal group living the dessert a school or temple made during that time?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well it's been awhile sense I've looked at this thread. Howeve
Is there any hard proof of an Egyptian tribal group living the dessert a school or temple made during that time?

No. We have uncovered no evidence to support the mass enslavement of Jews in Egypt, the plagues, nothing in the Red Sea, no documents from Egypt, just nothing to say the story is more than myth.

 

[Ebionite]

Yet, none of them actually saw Hashem since Hashem has no form or physical body/presence/etc.

And YHWH spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:11

 

[GoodAttention]

@GoodAttention Is the Dead Sea not fertile? Could fertile also explain water, or could a lack of fertile, as the word dead, explain water?

Water is life, so why is the Dead Sea dead? Not all water is life, some water is more salt that water.

Interestingly, the Dead Sea was also called the Lake of Sodom. Perhaps to indicate again, not all water is fertile? Ancient innuendo = abomination?

Back to the trusty Tamil dictionary, this one took some time to get the transliteration as close as possible, for those who are interested.

சூத்தாம்பட்டை​

cūttām-paṭṭai n. id.+. Buttocks, rump; பிரு்டம். Colloq.

The pronunciation would be suu-thaam, and "pattai", at least in current use, is a colloquial word for girl.

Hence, "one that allows the use of the buttocks like a girl". @Ehav4Ever FYI

 

[Brian2]

No. We have uncovered no evidence to support the mass enslavement of Jews in Egypt, the plagues, nothing in the Red Sea, no documents from Egypt, just nothing to say the story is more than myth.

There is plenty of evidence for Semitic slaves in Egypt.

There also is evidence for the plagues, but nothing official from the Egyptian Government saying "An unknown Semetic God has humiliated the Egyptian gods and caused the ruin of Egypt through a series of plagues and forced the Pharaoh to allow the Semitic slaves to leave Egypt. When Pharaoh decided again that he had made a mistake in allowing this, and followed the slaves with armed forces to bring them back, the armed forces were all killed by drowning in the Reed Sea when they tried to follow the slaves across the sea."

The Ipuwer Papyrus | 22 min - Evidence 4 Faith

Archaeology is a great scientific field to look for biblical evidence. The Ipuwer Papyrus is a controversial collection of poems from ancient Egypt with

evidence4faith.org

 

[Riders]

Didn't they think they found a chariot wheel as omewhere?

 

[Audie]

Didn't they think they found a chariot wheel as omewhere?

It wouldn't be " think", now, would it be
if someone brought one up?

There's a con man named Ron Wyatt who
also says he found Sodom and Gomorrah, the Ark
of the covenant and noahs ark, besides chariot wheels

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is plenty of evidence for Semitic slaves in Egypt.

There also is evidence for the plagues, but nothing official from the Egyptian Government saying "An unknown Semetic God has humiliated the Egyptian gods and caused the ruin of Egypt through a series of plagues and forced the Pharaoh to allow the Semitic slaves to leave Egypt. When Pharaoh decided again that he had made a mistake in allowing this, and followed the slaves with armed forces to bring them back, the armed forces were all killed by drowning in the Reed Sea when they tried to follow the slaves across the sea."

The Ipuwer Papyrus | 22 min - Evidence 4 Faith

Archaeology is a great scientific field to look for biblical evidence. The Ipuwer Papyrus is a controversial collection of poems from ancient Egypt with

evidence4faith.org

It didn't happen.
Sources and parallels of the Exodus - Wikipedia

The Exodus is the founding myth of the Israelites.[1][a] The scholarly consensus is that the Exodus, as described in the Torah, is not historical, even though there may be a historical core behind the Biblical narrative.[2][3]

Modern archaeologists believe that the Israelites were indigenous to Canaan and were never in ancient Egypt, and if there is any historical basis to the Exodus it can apply only to a small segment of the population of Israelites at large.[4] Nevertheless, it is also commonly argued that some historical event may have inspired these traditions, even if Moses and the Exodus narrative belong to the collective cultural memory rather than history.[5] According to Avraham Faust "most scholars agree that the narrative has a historical core, and that some of the highland settlers came, one way or another, from Egypt."[6]