sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The context simply isn't there.
-
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Eight Things Your Pastor Will Never Tell You About the Bible
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You're really not helping to advance the message that Christian ministers are lying to their congregations about a corrupt document. :run:
lunamoth
Will to love
We
Ooops! Right!
We were only told that stuff after we made a blood sacrifice and pledged our souls to the Anglican Pope.
<Whew That was a close one.>
Ooops! Right!
We were only told that stuff after we made a blood sacrifice and pledged our souls to the Anglican Pope.
<Whew That was a close one.>
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
...who is obviously gay. :areyoucra
Who's gay? The Anglican Pope, or the blood sacrifice?
It might be important if I want to start a blog detailing all these facts...
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Anglican pope, of course! It's a way to instantly destroy any credibility. They cite his wearing of a biretta with its gay little fuzzy ball as "proof."Who's gay? The Anglican Pope, or the blood sacrifice?
It might be important if I want to start a blog detailing all these facts...
Ijustwantpeace
Member
A quick refutation of the eight point, in this article. Not saying that these points aren’t worthy of debate, but, his “facts” on the bible are not as clear cut as he makes them out to be.
1) The Apostles of Jesus Seem to Have Known Nothing about a Virgin Birth
A. Just because Paul didn’t mention the virgin birth doesn’t mean he didn’t believe in it. The epistles weren’t summaries of Paul’s belief but only articulated specific doctrines based on the audiences he wrote to. Also, the verse quoted doesn’t dispute Paul’s belief (or non belief) in the virgin birth, it simply states that he believed that Jesus was a descendant of David, which he would be if Mary was a descendant of David.
B. His Second Statement that authoritatively declares that Matthew and Luke are pseudepigrapha and late is debatable, Most modern scholars (Secular or Otherwise) would date these books between 50-100AD, and certainly most pastors wouldn’t agree with his statement. This goes against the whole premise of the article which is that pastors are trying to hide certain passages from the congregation.
C. Arguably the first mention of a virgin birth is the prophecy Isaiah 7:14. I know there is much debate over if the Hebrew term for virgin actually means young maiden. However, it is interesting to note that the Septuagint (Written between 300-200bc) translates the word as virgin. It was written by over seventy Hebrew/Greek Scholars.
2. Jesus Said He Wanted to Offer Nothing to Gentiles.
While it is true that Jesus did not teach the gentiles personally, he did not block them from Christianity or Heaven. After observing the great faith of a gentile Centurion, Jesus says in Matthew 8:11
“I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven”
Also after the resurrection he instructs the Apostles to
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” Matthew 28:9
3. Jesus Tells Everyone Not to Think of Him as God in the First Three Gospels
A. The first claim he makes is that in the synoptic gospels(Matthew Mark, and Luke) Jesus isn’t shown as God, and doesn’t refer to himself as God. This just isn’t true.
First John the Baptist refers to Jesus as God in all three of the synoptic Gospels. Which Jesus never refutes. In Matthew Jesus is referred to as God with us (Matthew 1:23). Also Jesus accepts worship in Matthew and Luke. Worship which is in his own words is “reserved for God Alone.” (Matthew 4:10)
B. The second claim is that Jesus is claimed not to be good in Mark 10:18. But in that verse he never denies being good. He only asks why did the man call him Good. Then says God alone is good. In light of my previous paragraph Jesus both believed he was God, and in other verses relates his goodness. Therefore most pastors believe there is a different theological implication that Jesus is making.
4. The Resurrection Appearances in the Gospels Have Irreconcilable Differences
The differences are definitely not irreconcilable he actually offers the reconciliation in the article. Matthew and Mark says Jesus appeared in Judea( not only Judea as the article states). Luke and Acts says he appeared in Jerusalem(not only Jerusalem as the article states). John says he appeared in both. The obvious reconciliation is that he appeared in both places after the resurrection.
5. Jesus was against Public Prayer.
Jesus was not strictly against public prayer, however he was against public prayer just to be seen by others.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others.
He did say to pray in private, but this is not his all-encompassing teaching on prayer. He also asked people to pray with him( Matthew 26:40-43) . He himself prayed in public.(John 11:41-42)
6) Some Books of the Bible Are Forgeries
This is widely debated, However, biblical scholars who believe Titus, 1st and 2 Timothy, are forgeries are in the extreme minority(Like scientist who don’t believe in evolution minority). So are Pastors who believe this.
7) Parts of the Bible Were Intentionally Written to Disagree with Other Parts of the Bible
Psalms 51 was written before the construction of the temple, It is ascribed (in the bible) to David the father of Solomon who built the temple. So his whole premise is false.
Secondly in his reference to John the Baptist and the forgiveness of sins he makes an imaginary conflict. I say this because in the Gospel of John, he was baptizing people as well, assumedly for the repentance, and forgiveness of sins. The Gospel of John doesn’t contradict this statement.
8) Apostles Who Had Been Taught by Jesus Himself Insisted that Paul Was Wrong about the Gospel
Galatians 2:1-10 Is a chunk of scripture where Paul relates that he compared his gospel that he received from God with the Gospel of the apostles, and they had the same gospel.
So who are the “false apostles” 2 Corinthians 11:13, Just that, people who claimed to be apostles falsely. I think this is his weakest point of all, and it is surprising that he wrote a whole book on this ridiculous basis.
1) The Apostles of Jesus Seem to Have Known Nothing about a Virgin Birth
A. Just because Paul didn’t mention the virgin birth doesn’t mean he didn’t believe in it. The epistles weren’t summaries of Paul’s belief but only articulated specific doctrines based on the audiences he wrote to. Also, the verse quoted doesn’t dispute Paul’s belief (or non belief) in the virgin birth, it simply states that he believed that Jesus was a descendant of David, which he would be if Mary was a descendant of David.
B. His Second Statement that authoritatively declares that Matthew and Luke are pseudepigrapha and late is debatable, Most modern scholars (Secular or Otherwise) would date these books between 50-100AD, and certainly most pastors wouldn’t agree with his statement. This goes against the whole premise of the article which is that pastors are trying to hide certain passages from the congregation.
C. Arguably the first mention of a virgin birth is the prophecy Isaiah 7:14. I know there is much debate over if the Hebrew term for virgin actually means young maiden. However, it is interesting to note that the Septuagint (Written between 300-200bc) translates the word as virgin. It was written by over seventy Hebrew/Greek Scholars.
2. Jesus Said He Wanted to Offer Nothing to Gentiles.
While it is true that Jesus did not teach the gentiles personally, he did not block them from Christianity or Heaven. After observing the great faith of a gentile Centurion, Jesus says in Matthew 8:11
“I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven”
Also after the resurrection he instructs the Apostles to
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” Matthew 28:9
3. Jesus Tells Everyone Not to Think of Him as God in the First Three Gospels
A. The first claim he makes is that in the synoptic gospels(Matthew Mark, and Luke) Jesus isn’t shown as God, and doesn’t refer to himself as God. This just isn’t true.
First John the Baptist refers to Jesus as God in all three of the synoptic Gospels. Which Jesus never refutes. In Matthew Jesus is referred to as God with us (Matthew 1:23). Also Jesus accepts worship in Matthew and Luke. Worship which is in his own words is “reserved for God Alone.” (Matthew 4:10)
B. The second claim is that Jesus is claimed not to be good in Mark 10:18. But in that verse he never denies being good. He only asks why did the man call him Good. Then says God alone is good. In light of my previous paragraph Jesus both believed he was God, and in other verses relates his goodness. Therefore most pastors believe there is a different theological implication that Jesus is making.
4. The Resurrection Appearances in the Gospels Have Irreconcilable Differences
The differences are definitely not irreconcilable he actually offers the reconciliation in the article. Matthew and Mark says Jesus appeared in Judea( not only Judea as the article states). Luke and Acts says he appeared in Jerusalem(not only Jerusalem as the article states). John says he appeared in both. The obvious reconciliation is that he appeared in both places after the resurrection.
5. Jesus was against Public Prayer.
Jesus was not strictly against public prayer, however he was against public prayer just to be seen by others.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others.
He did say to pray in private, but this is not his all-encompassing teaching on prayer. He also asked people to pray with him( Matthew 26:40-43) . He himself prayed in public.(John 11:41-42)
6) Some Books of the Bible Are Forgeries
This is widely debated, However, biblical scholars who believe Titus, 1st and 2 Timothy, are forgeries are in the extreme minority(Like scientist who don’t believe in evolution minority). So are Pastors who believe this.
7) Parts of the Bible Were Intentionally Written to Disagree with Other Parts of the Bible
Psalms 51 was written before the construction of the temple, It is ascribed (in the bible) to David the father of Solomon who built the temple. So his whole premise is false.
Secondly in his reference to John the Baptist and the forgiveness of sins he makes an imaginary conflict. I say this because in the Gospel of John, he was baptizing people as well, assumedly for the repentance, and forgiveness of sins. The Gospel of John doesn’t contradict this statement.
8) Apostles Who Had Been Taught by Jesus Himself Insisted that Paul Was Wrong about the Gospel
Galatians 2:1-10 Is a chunk of scripture where Paul relates that he compared his gospel that he received from God with the Gospel of the apostles, and they had the same gospel.
So who are the “false apostles” 2 Corinthians 11:13, Just that, people who claimed to be apostles falsely. I think this is his weakest point of all, and it is surprising that he wrote a whole book on this ridiculous basis.
Last edited:
Don't jump to conclusions you can't make.
Thanks for doing all this work for me, I really do appreciate it.
Ijustwantpeace
Member
No problem, it did take me a little bit longer than I anticipated...
Don't jump to conclusions you can't make.
I can and I do
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it to be a bunch of hogwash.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Why would a pastor want to mention hogwash?
Muffled
Jesus in me
4. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Jerusalem was in Judea.
This is just not true. The majority opinion by far on the question of the authorship of the pastoral epistles is that Paul was not the author. The author claims to be Paul, but he is not Paul. There may be a few scholars who disagree, but scholars who think Paul wrote those books are in the minority position.
Sensational perhaps, but nonetheless actuate.