El, elohim, yahweh

[bribrius]

"At Ugarit, El was considered to be the father of the original Canaanite gods, who were called "the family of El. After him his sons were called 'the sons of El,' or simply 'ilm. Genesis has the same considerations concerning El, where "after him others were called the sons of El (Genesis 6:2,4), who came together in the assembly over which El presided. (Job 1:6; 2:1). Elohim stands in the assembly of El, in the midst of gods ['elohim] he judges (Psalms 82:1)."20 At Ugarit the consistent description of El as the oldest god is because he was the father of the original pantheon (council) of all the other gods, his sons.21 Some Ugarit texts describe El as taking care of the welfare of both gods and men "and blesses them with progeny."2



Council of the Gods in Ancient Literature and the Book of Abraham

and this seems to make the case that EL and Yahweh are tow different Gods, unless im reading it wrong..

yahweh was a sub god in the pantheon wasn't it?

 

[fallingblood]

what is your opinion on the council of Gods???



think there is another reference to the council of gods in genesis or somewhere too, let me think on it...

There are a number of different references to a council of gods, or divine beings. There have been a number of explanations for this. One is that it refers to angels; however, that is unlikely.

Judaism was, for a very long time, a monolatry. They accepted that there were other gods. Yet, officially, they adhered and worshipped one god (of course, that didn't always happen, as in people would go and worship other gods, but the official stance was worship of one god).

So it could refer to a divine council in that sense, that the council was composed of the various gods that were recognized. I'm not sure if I am convinced by that though.

It could be nothing more than a divine council in the sense that it was composed of lesser being then God. Not quite gods themselves, but above humans. Job is probably the best example here. Again, we see the divine council. Now, one of those individuals in the council is called ha-satan (this is not Satan as now is known. It is the Adversary or Accuser. Not an evil being). This character is probably the sort of character that composed the divine council. Not gods, but some sort of lesser divine being.

 

[bribrius]

There are a number of different references to a council of gods, or divine beings. There have been a number of explanations for this. One is that it refers to angels; however, that is unlikely.

Judaism was, for a very long time, a monolatry. They accepted that there were other gods. Yet, officially, they adhered and worshipped one god (of course, that didn't always happen, as in people would go and worship other gods, but the official stance was worship of one god).

So it could refer to a divine council in that sense, that the council was composed of the various gods that were recognized. I'm not sure if I am convinced by that though.

It could be nothing more than a divine council in the sense that it was composed of lesser being then God. Not quite gods themselves, but above humans. Job is probably the best example here. Again, we see the divine council. Now, one of those individuals in the council is called ha-satan (this is not Satan as now is known. It is the Adversary or Accuser. Not an evil being). This character is probably the sort of character that composed the divine council. Not gods, but some sort of lesser divine being.

Interesting outlook even if you yourself aren't convinced of it. Food for thought.
Glad to know it isnt just me that is confused my friend.

God bless

 

[outhouse]

one of the things i couldnt quite grasp, is if it was all the same God depicted. There seems to be various camps of debate on this. I read a few things. One camp believes they are totally different Gods........from early old testament, to new testament (maybe even three distinct Gods).

another believes it is all in reference to the same God.

There are people like pegg (God bless you pegg) and others that are much better than me at making sense of the translations.

But for some reason, there are still these different camps, opposing views.
i can pull up something saying they are different Gods entirely, while i could pull up something else more in line with what Pegg or others wrote saying it it is all in the translation and they are all the same God.
Early history DOES have many Gods in the region. and there is a El.
But is the EL yahweh? Or a different EL? And what is up with the ashera connection and baal? Wasnt yahweh originally a sub God or child God of EL?
So is EL and yahweh the same God through the entire bible???
i dunno :thud:

one at a time

But is the EL yahweh?

No El is his own deity

were this gets confusing is the OT redacted/edited the two together maning the two seem as one.

And what is up with the ashera connection and baal?

both semi edited out after 622 BC when the religion switched to monotheism

Wasnt yahweh originally a sub God or child God of EL?

yes he was




watch the vid i posted, it will answer all the questioned you asked in detail.

 

[outhouse]

Interesting outlook even if you yourself aren't convinced of it. Food for thought.
Glad to know it isnt just me that is confused my friend.

God bless

I have posted and fought with him over El and Elohim, El Shaddai, and El Elyon and their relationship to Yahweh.

he doesnt follow the scholarly view on this subject in favor of a more biblical version.


once you figure out teh cycles of worship and why to each deity during which period things tart to clear up.

 

[outhouse]

"At Ugarit, El was considered to be the father of the original Canaanite gods, who were called "the family of El. After him his sons were called 'the sons of El,' or simply 'ilm. Genesis has the same considerations concerning El, where "after him others were called the sons of El (Genesis 6:2,4), who came together in the assembly over which El presided. (Job 1:6; 2:1). Elohim stands in the assembly of El, in the midst of gods ['elohim] he judges (Psalms 82:1)."20 At Ugarit the consistent description of El as the oldest god is because he was the father of the original pantheon (council) of all the other gods, his sons.21 Some Ugarit texts describe El as taking care of the welfare of both gods and men "and blesses them with progeny."2



Council of the Gods in Ancient Literature and the Book of Abraham

and this seems to make the case that EL and Yahweh are tow different Gods, unless im reading it wrong..

yahweh was a sub god in the pantheon wasn't it?

yes

yahweh is the son in the family of gods



the confusion isnt just that the ancient hebrews worshipped yahweh during times of war and then back to El during times of peace over a 600 year period, but the way they redacted the two gods to form one after D was introduced in 622 BC

 

[bribrius]

one at a time




No El is his own deity

were this gets confusing is the OT redacted/edited the two together maning the two seem as one.




both semi edited out after 622 BC when the religion switched to monotheism





yes he was




watch the vid i posted, it will answer all the questioned you asked in detail.

Thankyou. God bless

 

[Pegg]

Probably not.


Which Hebrew scriptures?

this is a messianic prophecy...i know you wouldn't apply this to Jesus, but Christians do:
Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (ʼEl Gib·bohr′ ), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace

 

[garrydons]

There is only one God of Israel, that is YHWH. Other nations have there gods.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And there seeems to be some confusion on it. Wasnt baal a son of El too?

Meaning is contextual and evolves over time.

And yeshua was from what i read, a plains God or something.

Nonsense.

So you tell me up front what your agenda could be by listing your faith.

Transparency.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

this is a messianic prophecy...i know you wouldn't apply this to Jesus, but Christians do:
Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (ʼEl Gib·bohr′ ), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace

 

[gnostic]

im going to contradict fallingblood and say that the hebrew word 'El' or 'Elohim' is a common noun...not a proper noun. Its like the the word Doctor/President/Principle being used as a title....If i dont add a specific name to Doctor/President/Principle, you would not know who I was talking about. Only if i give you a proper noun (Name) can you identify the one im speaking about. President Obama, Principle Skinner, Doctor Phil.

The problem here, is that we have extant Canaanite/Ugaritic texts that have been written centuries earlier than the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus). El was a name for the supreme creator god of the Canaanite/Ugaritic pantheon. Elohim was also originally used as the name for El's children, thus group of deities, instead of being the name/title of single god.

Clearly the Hebrews/Israelites borrowed the name from their Canaanite cousin.

 

[outhouse]

The problem here, is that we have extant Canaanite/Ugaritic texts that have been written centuries earlier than the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus). El was a name for the supreme creator god of the Canaanite/Ugaritic pantheon. Elohim was also originally used as the name for El's children, thus group of deities, instead of being the name/title of single god.

Clearly the Hebrews/Israelites borrowed the name from their Canaanite cousin.

Israeli's were Canaanites, they didnt borrow.

there is almost no transition between Cannanite settlers in the hills and what would be Israelis.


Canaanites are the foundation and beginning to the ancient hebrew culture. The main difference is the Canaanites accepted other immigrants into the area from Mesopotamia and later a few from Egypt.

when people realize moses and the exodus story is fiction, learning the real history becomes much easier.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How is the translation on these from old testament to new testament?

is it possible that EL is a different God entirely being described in the old testament than yahweh in the new testament?

i was also wondering of the canaanite God.

who is their God is was there a chance it was El and the same God of the old testament?

i am having trouble with the different references of God in the bible, basically. And am starting to wonder if they are all the same God being described.

Or yeshua.

Im "God" confused....

It's just that, in different languages, or cultures / races, etc..people from old times, believed or wondered about some higher being (s), or force or creator and, each tribe, or nation/ race from very old time and from different parts of the world, called it a different name.
Whenever a prophet appeared among a certain race or group of people, that prophet used the same term/name that people in that region and time were used to, in order to talk about that Higher Being.
So, I personally don't even believe the name that is used for the Creator, or that Higher Being really matters.

 

[outhouse]

It's just that, in different languages, or cultures / races, etc..people from old times, believed or wondered about some higher being (s), or force or creator and, each tribe, or nation/ race from very old time and from different parts of the world, called it a different name.
Whenever a prophet appeared among a certain race or group of people, that prophet used the same term/name that people in that region and time were used to, in order to talk about that Higher Being.
So, I personally don't even believe the name that is used for the Creator, or that Higher Being really matters.

except thats not what we are talking about.

ancient cultures believed in many deities, not just one.

this has to do with ancient hebrews polytheism and their belief in a family of deities

 

[elmarna]

It is not a "different" God - it is God in his entirety!

 

[Caladan]

The problem here, is that we have extant Canaanite/Ugaritic texts that have been written centuries earlier than the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus). El was a name for the supreme creator god of the Canaanite/Ugaritic pantheon. Elohim was also originally used as the name for El's children, thus group of deities, instead of being the name/title of single god.

Clearly the Hebrews/Israelites borrowed the name from their Canaanite cousin.

This is all relevant information, and it touches another thread about the Arabic name of God. El was at the head of the Canaanite pantheon, and as outhouse points out, the Israelites as an emerging culture in the Levant, or Canaan, progressed with the god name El and incoroprated him into a new theology. likewise before Arabic monotheism emerged, or in other words Islam. the god Allah, was at the head of the Arabic pantheon, before becoming the sole supreme God of Islam.

 

[outhouse]

It is not a "different" God - it is God in his entirety!

false

 

[elmarna]

The whole idea of a this is in a reference point and a wording.
Jewish references of the greatness of God is not to be placed with Canninites!
I can be inspired by the philosophies of other cultures and reflect on ,consider, and call upon a idea that can influnence my thinking.
I can not go into the past to truely understand why the" el" of Canninites is placed on Judisum. I know if I am useing the word Bonnet it does not mean I am refering to a car because I am not in England. Yet, it is a english word!
I AM NOT FALSE in my prior statement.
Your belief may not agree with me and I fail to see a battle of beliefs as neccesarry.
Not everything in books is truth. If you wish to realize "el" in the phrase at the beginning of this thread. Learn Yiddish!!!

 

[outhouse]

The whole idea of a this is in a reference point and a wording.
Jewish references of the greatness of God is not to be placed with Canninites!
I can be inspired by the philosophies of other cultures and reflect on ,consider, and call upon a idea that can influnence my thinking.
I can not go into the past to truely understand why the" el" of Canninites is placed on Judisum. I know if I am useing the word Bonnet it does not mean I am refering to a car because I am not in England. Yet, it is a english word!
I AM NOT FALSE in my prior statement.
Your belief may not agree with me and I fail to see a battle of beliefs as neccesarry.
Not everything in books is truth. If you wish to realize "el" in the phrase at the beginning of this thread. Learn Yiddish!!!

yes your dead wrong.


Canaanites worshiped the deities in the bible first before Israeli's culture and civilization started.

El is not Yawheh

even yahweh pre-dates Isralei's and goes back to the Shasu tribe. Yahweh is the same god you call Allah is it not?

well Yahweh and El were combined through redaction of scripture after the religion switched from polytheism to monotheism after 622 BC