Emma Watson

[MysticSang'ha]

I can't frubal you again, but you get it for adding a second sane post to this thread (mine included.)

I'll accept a glomptastic hug.

 

[Alceste]

Yeah, I haven't seen the speech but I'm glad to hear she made one. I am still waiting for my own invitation to opine to the UN, but maybe they prefer actors to lighting technicians.

 

[Drolefille]

I'll accept a glomptastic hug.

​

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Now here is a feminist response. Thanks for your post and thoughtfulness. You have opened a lot of interesting ideas worthy of further discussion. That was the point of this thread. More later.

I can attest to Drolefille being a fine feminist and is very knowledgeable about the history of each wave, and also offers personal insight to feminism's various talking points. I learn a lot from her.

 

[Drolefille]

I can attest to Drolefille being a fine feminist and is very knowledgeable about the history of each wave, and also offers personal insight to feminism's various talking points. I learn a lot from her.

No way. I can't be a feminist. I didn't like his letter! (I feel like the sarcasm is obvious, right?... Right?)

Actually I feel bad for any mods that have to deal with my posts being reported, so ... sorry mods!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yeah, I haven't seen the speech but I'm glad to hear she made one. I am still waiting for my own invitation to opine to the UN, but maybe they prefer actors to lighting technicians.

Or dancers. :sad4:

 

[Avi1001]

No way. I can't be a feminist. I didn't like his letter! (I feel like the sarcasm is obvious, right?... Right?)

Actually I feel bad for any mods that have to deal with my posts being reported, so ... sorry mods!

I posted an important speech by Emma Watson and you jumped on me.

I am sorry if my post insulted you...it was not intended.

I am not reporting this interaction, I am moving forward.

Back on ignore.

 

[Drolefille]

I posted an important speech by Emma Watson and you jumped on me.

I am sorry if my post insulted you...it was not intended.

I am not reporting this interaction, I am moving on.

Back on ignore.

No, I stated that I, personally, am tired of seeing people make claims like "Why aren't the women/feminists/Muslims/whatever responding to this? Don't they care?"

It's baiting and it's both ridiculous on its face - I didn't reply for multiple reasons having discussed the topic other places and finding your "letter" not exactly requiring a serious response - and it implies that one thinks less of the ones being "called out."

If nothing else, rephrasing it to ask if there's a reason women aren't responding would at least be more polite. But realistically it's a forum, everyone has lives and not everyone sees everything or wants to reply to it. Don't put the onus on others for not responding to you.

I didn't jump on you. I in fact asked for elaboration which you ignored and then assumed I wasn't a feminist.

PS. I don't think the speech is that important, personally. It's good and all, but not that important.

 

[Avi1001]

No, I stated that I, personally, am tired of seeing people make claims like "Why aren't the women/feminists/Muslims/whatever responding to this? Don't they care?"

It's baiting and it's both ridiculous on its face - I didn't reply for multiple reasons having discussed the topic other places and finding your "letter" not exactly requiring a serious response - and it implies that one thinks less of the ones being "called out."

If nothing else, rephrasing it to ask if there's a reason women aren't responding would at least be more polite. But realistically it's a forum, everyone has lives and not everyone sees everything or wants to reply to it. Don't put the onus on others for not responding to you.

I didn't jump on you. I in fact asked for elaboration which you ignored and then assumed I wasn't a feminist.

PS. I don't think the speech is that important, personally. It's good and all, but not that important.

Ok, fine. I also shouldn't have pulled the self-identified feminist card. I don't like when people do that to me, so I apologize for doing that to you. And your friend, Mystic, stood up for you as well. Also, I never intended to "bait" or "call anyone out".

I do think Emma Watson's speech is an important one. So that's why I was pushing to get some reactions to the speech. I sometimes use non-traditional means to get attention. No harm intended.

 

[Avi1001]

Back to these comments, they are great, with lots of insight, thanks.

I think Emma Watson is a fantastic spokesperson for HeforShe because she is extremely intelligent and an excellent speaker. At only 24 years old she has already reached stardom, of her own right, think about the long term impact she can have.

As for her comments about getting men involved as feminists, I am in full agreement. Some of us can identify as associating with a minority, for example I am a reform Jew, a minority, while other men may identify even if they are not part of a minority. I also agree it is not necessary for feminists to try to open up to men, but I think it is a really good idea.

Also, wrt her comments about man-haters, I think she really on target as well. While I think this is a very small percentage of all feminists, I think haters of any kind should not be tolerated.

But, the main thing I really liked about Emma's speech was the aura. Maybe it was in part because of her youthfulness, but it felt to me like she was very open and direct and honest. I think she has a great cause, and a personality to really make it work...I will be watching what happens next.

Thanks for linking. Her speech at the U.N. made some waves in social media, and mainstream folks have welcomed her rhetoric.

Feminists overall are somewhat divided in how useful her speech has been. Some feel "leaning in" (thank you Bell Hooks) offers language that privileged people can relate to and feel compassion for rights granted to women. Some feel relating the idea that patriarchy hurts men just as much is not useful, and opens a door suggesting that the current system ought to focus more attention on males then females. And then some others feel that the language in #HeforShe is transphobic and binarist, and reduces gender down to a simplistic gender binary, and marginalizes agendered, gender-queer, and bigendered people.

Jackson Katz has spoken to men many times about how male feminists are highly important allies, and can walk alongside females who are fighting and speaking out for equality and justice. Personally, I think Emma Watson is awesome for speaking to the U.N. and for accepting the position of spokesperson for such a campaign. I think inclusiveness is a good measure, but not the keystone. It's been said before that being a male feminist requires feeling uncomfortable, since one must recognize that giving up privilege so that others may enjoy the same rights and protections you have means you are not the center of attention all the time, and many things are instantly accessible with others included in the conversation.

This is probably where feminism gets the reputation that we hate men. Why? Because all the jobs available, once available only to men, can go to a woman instead if she is more qualified. Suddenly, opportunities that were so easily available before are not as available, and losing that privilege can feel like a smack in the face when you're not that special anymore. You're suddenly more like everybody else who don't look like you or uses a toilet like you. Oh darn, right?

Anyway, back to Ms. Watson. Good for her. I like seeing young women speak out as feminists. I'd have chosen Madison Kearney, instead, but I understand the star appeal for a campaign with larger goals.

 

[ScottySatan]

I find it very hard to believe that what you gave us is an actual quote.

"Originally Posted by Emma Watson:

Dearest Avi,
Thank you kindly for your lovely note. I can see, you indeed, are a male feminist. You clearly have a deep understanding of challenges faced by women in 2014. As the star of "Harry Potter", I am fabulously wealthy, but enjoy receiving a note from one as gifted and intelligent as you, Avi.

By the way, I am a secret fan of your "Avi" thread, and enjoy seeing you hammer those chauvinists in the Judaism DIR. You are the type of fearless feminist I spoke of in my speech to the UN.

Also, thanks for your encouragement. You are right, I hope to still be a leading feminist in 75 years.

Avi, with visionaries like your self, I would agree that "humanist, liberal and feminist" is the way to go.

Also, I would like to continue to converse with you through this thread.

Avi, thanks for your charm, good looks and grace. You are my kind of dude!

Best wishes,
Emma "Hermione" Watson"

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I find it very hard to believe that what you gave us is an actual quote.

"Originally Posted by Emma Watson:

Dearest Avi,
Thank you kindly for your lovely note. I can see, you indeed, are a male feminist. You clearly have a deep understanding of challenges faced by women in 2014. As the star of "Harry Potter", I am fabulously wealthy, but enjoy receiving a note from one as gifted and intelligent as you, Avi.

By the way, I am a secret fan of your "Avi" thread, and enjoy seeing you hammer those chauvinists in the Judaism DIR. You are the type of fearless feminist I spoke of in my speech to the UN.

Also, thanks for your encouragement. You are right, I hope to still be a leading feminist in 75 years.

Avi, with visionaries like your self, I would agree that "humanist, liberal and feminist" is the way to go.

Also, I would like to continue to converse with you through this thread.

Avi, thanks for your charm, good looks and grace. You are my kind of dude!

Best wishes,
Emma "Hermione" Watson"

I'm viewing it as a 100% real quote for a given value of 'Emma Watson'.
(somewhere around 0% sounds about right)

In terms of the topic at hand, couple of quick comments;

I think when addressing a wide group who will have varying levels of knowledge and understanding about feminism, it is sensible to tackle it in a less controversial manner than might otherwise be the case.
For some listening to her simply because of who she is, this might very well be their first brush with declared feminism. I could see (guess) that her style of presentation, and some of the concepts raised could cause some to reconsider views of what feminism is.

Will it lead them to actually understand what feminism is? No, I wouldn't have thought so. But perhaps it's a first step for some to consider a broader definition, and become less 'anti-feminist'. Or to make some steps towards becoming less-ignorant.

I think this speech would have very little effect on those who are already invested and informed (be they pro or anti-feminism), but that's understandable. She's young, she relies to some extent on popularity for her career, and she's speaking to a wide, public audience.

Kudos to any celebrity who shows some actual awareness of issues effecting the world (as opposed to jumping on an issue of the week bandwagon).

As most of you know, my own association with feminism is developing, rather than developed, so I may very well be talking through my hat here. Then again, I do so with other topics, so why should feminism be spared?

 

[Avi1001]

I maintain the original letter on the porch of my house in a #2 mayonnaise jar certified by Funk and Wagnall.

I find it very hard to believe that what you gave us is an actual quote.

"Originally Posted by Emma Watson:

Dearest Avi,
Thank you kindly for your lovely note. I can see, you indeed, are a male feminist. You clearly have a deep understanding of challenges faced by women in 2014. As the star of "Harry Potter", I am fabulously wealthy, but enjoy receiving a note from one as gifted and intelligent as you, Avi.

By the way, I am a secret fan of your "Avi" thread, and enjoy seeing you hammer those chauvinists in the Judaism DIR. You are the type of fearless feminist I spoke of in my speech to the UN.

Also, thanks for your encouragement. You are right, I hope to still be a leading feminist in 75 years.

Avi, with visionaries like your self, I would agree that "humanist, liberal and feminist" is the way to go.

Also, I would like to continue to converse with you through this thread.

Avi, thanks for your charm, good looks and grace. You are my kind of dude!

Best wishes,
Emma "Hermione" Watson"

 

[Yerda]

It's a mystery to me why feminism is so frequently associated with man-hating. I get that the charge likely originates as a slur by anti-feminists, but the mystery is why it has caught on?

It is an obvious weapon. It serves the needs of some. It reduces cognitive dissonance in others.

I've been at two feminist meetings in my life (although I'm really looking forward to the next Women for Independence meeting). Both occasions were fiery. The unfortunate result both times was men being shouted down by very angry women. I think there were men who left with the impression that feminism is about being angry at any man who questions a woman.

Left wing politics, eh?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It is an obvious weapon. It serves the needs of some. It reduces cognitive dissonance in others.

I've been at two feminist meetings in my life (although I'm really looking forward to the next Women for Independence meeting). Both occasions were fiery. The unfortunate result both times was men being shouted down by very angry women. I think there were men who left with the impression that feminism is about being angry at any man who questions a woman.

Left wing politics, eh?

I'd offer to come to ours, but ya know...geography and all...

The last meeting was attended people male and female, and two that I'm aware of who are non-binary gendered. And males made up half the group. It was pretty awesome. And it went really really well. Lots of ideas. Lots of camaraderie. It was a success.

Every now and then, however, we hear a man attending a meeting who wants to explain to us when we say "men say _____" or "men do _____", that not all men do these things. These are the statements that typically begin a conflict, and usually (from my POV), that:

1) We already know that not all men engage in this behavior. Speaking from what we experience, typically as women, saying "men _____" is not an indictment against every single man in existence. Unfortunately, the conversation begins to be diverted into proving to men in attendance who make that mistake, and the topic is put on the back burner again. It simply becomes a derailment, and suddenly the meeting must put talking points aside in order to make the men in attendance feel more comfortable.

That's probably why you'll see some guys being shouted down. Women like coming to feminist meetings so that they can actually talk about women's issues without a man feeling the need to explain what's more important. When a man in attendance does just that? Some women show their frustration. Loudly.

2) When privileged people enter into a movement as an ally, there's a term that's used a lot..."check your privilege." As a white person, I will never have the same experience and marginalization as a person of color. As a cis gendered person, I will never experience life as a trans gendered person. Gay men will never have the same experience as I do as a bisexual woman (and there is some privilege in queer circles that gay men have over bi women). Tall people will never experience what I do as a short person. Hopefully my point is starting to be understood.

So, if I enter into a room full of black people, and then have the audacity to tell them what life is really like, that not all white people oppress them, that whites experience racism just as much, that they should just pull their pants up and get a job....oosh....I'm making it all about my default view of reality as a white person. And I'm going to be confronted.

Try telling a trans person that what they're experiencing isn't exactly what life is really like, so let a cis person tell them what actually is.

Getting back to the men at the feminist meetings, and watching things get heated, "daring" to question a feminist is an assumption that feminists are all a homogenous spheres of Canned Rage. We are all very different from each other. Some have never been sexually assaulted. Some have never seen the inside of a boardroom. Some have never done sex work. Some have never had an abortion. But for those who have experienced these things usually share with each other, and for the most part, there's a nod of the head, and then the question, "What can I do to help?"

Typically the Canned Rage is kept for the system. So, any apologetics in the form of a question or a statement that sound in support of the system in place? That anger is unleashed. It isn't personal. It isn't men.

Hope that helps clarify a few things from around these parts.

 

[Yerda]

Good post. I hope men keep going to the meetings.