Emotions,Psychology vs. Logic and Reason in Religion

[GadFly]

My reply to MoonWater expresses well what this thread is about. I believe that emotional needs and life's background have as much to do with religion as logic and reasoning ever have. What do you think?

MoonWater, I admire the patience you have in discussing religion with so many unbelievers on these threads. You are good at logic and you demonstrate a lot of compassion for others. What experiences you have had to learn all these great qualities at such an early age, speaks well of your parents. On a thread like this that ask a question on logic vs. religion, do you not have the feeling that we are dealing with the emotional and psychological needs of people who are reaching out to others who seem to have a stability in their lives due to logical religious beliefs?

As you point out it is the minority of the religious fanatics who do the shouting and abusive things in religion and who get a lot of attention. When it comes time for atheist and unbelievers to vent their frustration with life, they do not chose crazy religious people, but rather they talk to and vent with people who have solid religious beliefs.

Clearly there are several, if not all, participants on this thread, which has become very large, that have a good understanding of philosophy; but the discussion has become as much emotional as it has been logical. The hostility, ager, name calling, insults, and slap downs have at times been intense and at a high pitch. Yet, the participants have remained on this thread.

Do you get the sense that you are meeting the emotional needs of others who need to vent, who are not really seeking intellectual satisfaction, but are seeking a type of love and recognition that can only be provided from people who really believe in religion and practice their faith? I believe this explains the hostility that has existed on this thread and I also believe the thread should discuss the relationship of psychological needs vs. logic and religion. This sounds like a new thread, also.
GadFly

 

[MoonWater]

Since this is a thread inspired by a post you made to me I think it might be helpful if I post here what I said in reply to you. Here it is:

MoonWater I admire the patience you have in discussing religion with so many unbelievers on these threads. You are good at logic and you demonstrate a lot of compassion for others. What experiences you have had to learn all these great qualities at such an early age, speaks well of your parents.

Thanks

On a thread like this that ask a question on logic vs. religion, do you not have the feeling that we are dealing with the emotional and psychological needs of people who are reaching out to others who seem to have a stability in their lives due to logical religious beliefs?

Not really but then I don't see religion as something everyone needs to have period, let alone to "have a stability in their lives." I think I'm just dealing with some people who like to over-generalize and believe in the current stereotypes. I have no idea what sort of emotional or psychological need this may speak of, if it speaks of one at all. Besides everyone's life goes through periods of stability and instability regardless of whether or not they possess "logical religious beliefs."

As you point out it is the minority of the religious fanatics who do the shouting and abusive things in religion and who get a lot of attention. When it comes time for atheist and unbelievers to vent their frustration with life, they do not chose crazy religious people, but rather they talk to and vent with people who have solid religious beliefs.

I'm pretty sure that the religious fanatics have rather solid religious beliefs as well. They're just more fervent in them than most other religious people and as a result are often used by others as an example to categorize the rest of us. But yes most often I find that when people do that sort of thing they are speaking to people who are nothing like that at all.

Clearly there are several, if not all, participants on this thread, which has become very large, that have a good understanding of philosophy; but the discussion has become as much emotional as it has been logical. The hostility, ager, name calling, insults, and slap downs have at times been intense and at a high pitch. Yet, the participants have remained on this thread.

Do you get the sense that you are meeting the emotional needs of others who need to vent, who are not really seeking intellectual satisfaction, but are seeking a type of love and recognition that can only be provided from people who really believe in religion and practice their faith?

I do believe there are some people here who aren't really interested in intellectual satisfaction but I don't see how there could be nor do I believe that there IS "a type of love and recognition that can ONLY be provided from people who really believe in religion and practice their faith?" Everyone is capable of both giving and receiving all possible types of love and recognition regardless of whether or not they are religious. There is no type of love and recognition that is exclusive to and can only be accessed and given by religious people. Non-religious people are not lacking in anything simply because they choose to not be religious. And turning to religion isn't necessarily the cure for someone who feels there is something lacking in them, though it very well could be there are numerous other ways for people to "fill the voids" that they may find within them. Whether or not a person is unable to provide or receive any particular type of love and recognition has nothing to do with their particular religious affiliation or lack there of.

I believe this explains the hostility that has existed on this thread

You might, I don't.

and I also believe the thread should discuss the relationship of psychological needs vs. logic and religion. This sounds like a new thread, also.
GadFly

That would indeed be another thread since this one is limited to the area of logic and religion rather than psychological needs and logic and religion.

 

[GadFly]

What MoonWater did in her reply was make me realize how subjective this thread is on my part. It was the harshness and crudity of religion that affected me in my formative years (60+yrs.ago) that motivated me to reject religion. There was nevertheless a lot of good things about religion when I was a child, but I did not experience these. When I first accepted religion as a way of life, it was an emotional experience and not a rational one.

Then I began to think for my self, about the time I entered college. Soon after graduating from college, I rejected everything that had been taught me by religious people and looked for a practical way to think and live. It happened to me again. I walked back into religion but this time through natural theological efforts. No revelation stuff. Later I have discovered that the revealed revelation tools of the Christian faith confirms my personal religion, which now makes me a believer in the truthfulness of the Bible. That is it. You deserve to have an objective view of my subjective view of religion.

It is from this background that I see in many responses on these threads of people reacting emotionally to questions about God rather than using logic. If you argue with me about the error in my religion, an attack on the Bible and other religious truths will not bother me. It is in natural theology that the truth about God has been revealed, although I believe the Bible well. But it is through natural theology where the peace the Bible talks about is found.
GadFly

 

[Father Heathen]

Isn't "Are you new to RelgiousForums.com?" the wrong section for this?

 

[Sunstone]

Isn't "Are you new to RelgiousForums.com?" the wrong section for this?

Yup. Moving to Comparative Religion.

 

[GadFly]

Yup. Moving to Comparative Religion.

Thank you for moving this thread to its proper position. It took me several efforts to figure out how to create a thread and post it. I think the next time, I'll know how.
GadFly

 

[Charity]

Thank you for moving this thread to its proper position. It took me several efforts to figure out how to create a thread and post it. I think the next time, I'll know how.
GadFly

Well Gadfly I am glad your thread finally found a home. Now maybe if I can figure out how to do this I will start one.
Well maybe you can help me with some of my feelings of failure. I realize that I am a fundamentalist when it comes to religion. I like the absolute. I want to help people, or at least the ones who want to be helped. I don't want to change people from their belief, but the ones who say they are Christians and who use the Holy Bible as their road map so to speak, are the ones who peak my interest....I find it very difficult to see how if people read and study the bible that they don't believe all the bible. I refer to the Bible as the road map because I feel like if we follow it we have a straight route from here to Heaven....

How can people not know about basic Christian doctrine? It plainly says there is a Heaven to gain and a hell to shun....How can someone say they are not sure there is a hell? How can you not believe in a Trinity? The Bible plainly teaches that there are 3, God, the father, Jesus Christ, the son and the Holy Ghost. From what the scriptures say , I see that there is a LOT of importance placed in the Holy Ghost.

Mark 4:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

It doesn't take a genius to read someone's post and see that they have no concept of what the Trinity is. What bothers me is they will not let you explain it to them, they develop hostility and indifference. When I was young I was eager to learn, had a thirst and hunger for knowledge . There are some people that have a gift for understanding the Bible and to some it is more difficult. Why do people not want to learn anymore? I'm not speaking of the atheist, they are a waste of my time, why argue, they could care less . I don't have time to argue I have to be about my Father's business.

I guess what I'm saying is, I feel like such a failure because I don't know what to do to reach these people. Have people reached the point that they don't want to know the whole truth? Are some people unwilling to learn because once they learn the whole truth that they have to be responsible for what they learned. There is a scripture that says " If you sin wilfully after you come to the knowledge of the truth that there remaineth no more sacrifice for your sins".........

My heart hurts for these people who lack understanding, and I feel that I have failed because I don't know what to do to help.

I know God's word doesn't return void, I guess that is the reason I keep going. :sad4:
Any suggestions Gadfly?

 

[GadFly]

Dear Charity:
In my opinion it is best to resist the feeling of having to reach out to others to show them the light. You must trust God to lead others as you feel he has led you. Another person who wants the truth will find it. That is the Christian belief. You are not a search light but a beacon set on a hill. God does the searching and the persuading. Religion is a personal thing, no exceptions. The mistaken religious zealot can do more damage in the life of a believer in one day than an atheist can in a life time. A believer knows for sure where an atheist stands in religious things but fellow believers may be struggling with ideas that may take them forever to resolve.

This thread is about emotions and psychology and how it relates to religious beliefs. It is my opinion that most beliefs are determined by emotions and psychology first and reaffirmed or rejected as the thinking and reasoning process matures. This seems to be especially true of younger people. As a young believer in God my life was more disturbed by well meaning persons trying to point me in the correct way to God than any other stumbling block that could have been thrown before me.

My experience with zealots is extensive. They were fundamentalist Christians as you and I are, but they did not allow me to come to that opinion by myself. Their truth was piled on me to the point that everything learned from them had to be unlearned before any real spiritual progress was made in my life. It is too bad that the things learned through emotions and psychology have as a lasting affect on a person as does things learned by reasoning and logic. That seems to be an age old problem of youth and new believers as well.

My advice to you is to be less concerned with others, as they are God's concern, and search your religious beliefs for areas of improvement to allow your light to shine better. This forum is a wonderful place to learn and to play the game of life. You'll run into walls here, be put down, challenged, and forced to rethink your positions. Take it for what its worth and enjoy yourself. That is the best way you can help others.
GadFly

 

[Shellybelly7]

I completely agree with you. I think it should be a good balance, actually.

However, unfortunately, I think most people have followed their feelings when choosing to believe what they believe. I see people rejecting the religion they were brought up in just to spite their parents. This is also why some get into drugs. They hurt themselves, just to get back at their parents. Others cling to the religion they were brought up in and even go to church regularly only because it makes their mother or father happy. And even others will stop going to church all together and leave the God question on the shelf to be solved yet another day, simply due to lack of interest, an emotion in itself. When standing before God, these people will want to explain to him when judgement day comes, as to why they did not investigate further, not continue to read the sacred scripture, etc, and determine, while asking for God's inspiration and help in determining the true from the false. Will they say, "But it would have broken my mother's heart." or "I just had to much hate and didn't want to deal with it." or simply, "I just lost interest in your message", with a yawn?

 

[Charity]

I know you are right about most of this....But you know the bible says some are prophets, some teachers, some preachers, and etc....It's very difficult to let go when you know you have been called to do something.... Do I have to let people go with ever learning but never coming to the truth. Pardon my paraphrasing of that verse. Like I said I never was upset when someone brought new knowledge to me, I just wanted to keep learning more and more.... I know that accepting Jesus as the Lord of your life is the key to eternal Life.... But we aren't saved to just sit down and do nothing..... The fields are ripe to harvest but the workers are few.....

There are some others on this forum that have the same zeal that I do....I have read their posts, and I think, Well maybe I can make a difference to just one person, then it will have been worth it all....

Thank you and Shellybelly both for your posts.....Not quite what I hoped for, but I see that times have changed, people have changed. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He never changes. I still have that comfort.
Thank you all and Blessings on you

 

[GadFly]

Charity. do what you think is right. We never intended to slow you down in your zeal. Had everybody been laid back in comfort mode after the resurrection, the Gospel would have still been a secrete to millions. For me, I still suffer from unlearned teachings of zealots who put their knowledge before their care for me. That was not good for me; therefore, I may be a little more subtle with my approach. Everybody must walk their own road. If people don't like your approach, you'll hear from them.
GadFly

 

[Charity]

Charity. do what you think is right. We never intended to slow you down in your zeal. Had everybody been laid back in comfort mode after the resurrection, the Gospel would have still been a secrete to millions. For me, I still suffer from unlearned teachings of zealots who put their knowledge before their care for me. That was not good for me; therefore, I may be a little more subtle with my approach. Everybody must walk their own road. If people don't like your approach, you'll hear from them.
GadFly[/quote


Well Jesus was not accepted by His own people, John the Baptist paid the price by being beheaded for preaching repentance. Stephen was stoned (not on drugs by the way) At least I am in the best of company, If I stand up for what I believe. And we know the fate of many other disciples and followers.

II Tim 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith


Abundantly blessed Charity