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Employment Guarantee

Underhill

Well-Known Member
I find all this talk about civility uncivilized. This is a forum with rules people. Keep the civil talk under control or there may be consequences. Probably not. But still.

On the topic at hand there is no "perfect" system that doesn't involve compromise. All are prone to problems. Capitalism without strict regulation becomes a fiefdom over time. Socialism left to it's own devices tends to strangle innovation and initiative. And I think the same is true of any of these ideals.

It is telling that the US and China started in very different places but are gradually moving in the same direction. They are infusing capitalism. We are infusing socialism. What is silly is claiming one is good and the other is evil. Much like conservative or liberal, all of one or the other is an absurd position to take. It's like a driver who chooses to only use the gas pedal or the brake, but never both.

I do have concerns that a employment guarantee may be a bridge too far. I like the idea. Love it really. But it sounds like a very hard thing to implement well over the long term.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I find all this talk about civility uncivilized. This is a forum with rules people. Keep the civil talk under control or there may be consequences. Probably not. But still.

On the topic at hand there is no "perfect" system that doesn't involve compromise. All are prone to problems. Capitalism without strict regulation becomes a fiefdom over time. Socialism left to it's own devices tends to strangle innovation and initiative. And I think the same is true of any of these ideals.

It is telling that the US and China started in very different places but are gradually moving in the same direction. They are infusing capitalism. We are infusing socialism. What is silly is claiming one is good and the other is evil. Much like conservative or liberal, all of one or the other is an absurd position to take. It's like a driver who chooses to only use the gas pedal or the brake, but never both.

I do have concerns that a employment guarantee may be a bridge too far. I like the idea. Love it really. But it sounds like a very hard thing to implement well over the long term.
I'll stick to my extreme approach, ie, all capitalism.
But I'm willing to let the state provide a safety net, which achieves some of the same goals my socialist brethren & sistern favor.
Moreover, I find the current safety net inadequate & dysfunctional.

Oh, & in the interest of civility.....
You're not that big a poopy head.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I find all this talk about civility uncivilized. This is a forum with rules people. Keep the civil talk under control or there may be consequences. Probably not. But still.

Political debates may get a bit heated, although I'll abide by the rules of the forum. I didn't see that it was really a huge deal; it's just a discussion, a disagreement. It happens.

On the topic at hand there is no "perfect" system that doesn't involve compromise. All are prone to problems. Capitalism without strict regulation becomes a fiefdom over time. Socialism left to it's own devices tends to strangle innovation and initiative. And I think the same is true of any of these ideals.

It is telling that the US and China started in very different places but are gradually moving in the same direction. They are infusing capitalism. We are infusing socialism. What is silly is claiming one is good and the other is evil. Much like conservative or liberal, all of one or the other is an absurd position to take. It's like a driver who chooses to only use the gas pedal or the brake, but never both.

I do have concerns that a employment guarantee may be a bridge too far. I like the idea. Love it really. But it sounds like a very hard thing to implement well over the long term.

I believe in a mixed system as well - socialism for the necessities and capitalism for the luxuries. I think political freedom, academic freedom, and scientific freedom are the best avenues conducive towards innovation and initiative. I don't think "capitalism" or "socialism" have much to do with that, in and of themselves. Either system can be politically free, partly free, or not free.

The Chinese are demonstrating that they're ideologically flexible - something that the Soviet leadership could never really do - until Gorbachev, who was likely heading in a similar direction as China before his downfall. I see a similar problem here in America in that there is a great deal of ideological inflexibility, which could be our undoing.

An employment guarantee may only be a stopgap. I don't believe it would be a lasting solution to our current economic woes. Our biggest problems are the trade deficit, the national debt, a lack of affordable housing, high prices, and stagnant wages that can't keep up. So, we need tariffs, governmental austerity, and wage/price/rent controls as temporary measures to stabilize the economy and get America back on its feet. This might seem "socialistic" to some and might violate the orthodoxy of capitalism. But we have to have flexibility and be able to think outside the box. If we can't be flexible and adapt to changing world conditions, then our country will most certainly fall.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Political debates may get a bit heated, although I'll abide by the rules of the forum. I didn't see that it was really a huge deal; it's just a discussion, a disagreement. It happens.



I believe in a mixed system as well - socialism for the necessities and capitalism for the luxuries. I think political freedom, academic freedom, and scientific freedom are the best avenues conducive towards innovation and initiative. I don't think "capitalism" or "socialism" have much to do with that, in and of themselves. Either system can be politically free, partly free, or not free.

The Chinese are demonstrating that they're ideologically flexible - something that the Soviet leadership could never really do - until Gorbachev, who was likely heading in a similar direction as China before his downfall. I see a similar problem here in America in that there is a great deal of ideological inflexibility, which could be our undoing.

An employment guarantee may only be a stopgap. I don't believe it would be a lasting solution to our current economic woes. Our biggest problems are the trade deficit, the national debt, a lack of affordable housing, high prices, and stagnant wages that can't keep up. So, we need tariffs, governmental austerity, and wage/price/rent controls as temporary measures to stabilize the economy and get America back on its feet. This might seem "socialistic" to some and might violate the orthodoxy of capitalism. But we have to have flexibility and be able to think outside the box. If we can't be flexible and adapt to changing world conditions, then our country will most certainly fall.

At least in the short term, those kinds of measures would mean a major depression as world trade crumbles. I think much of the problem we face now is how to turn back the clock without causing financial ruin. I don't know that it's even possible.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
At least in the short term, those kinds of measures would mean a major depression as world trade crumbles. I think much of the problem we face now is how to turn back the clock without causing financial ruin. I don't know that it's even possible.

Probably in the short term, yes. The last 35 years of bad policies have done significant damage to our economy and way of life. But it might be better to go through a little pain now to avoid a lot of pain later. It's like a heroin addict going through withdrawal in the short term in order to have a better life in the long term.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Probably in the short term, yes. The last 35 years of bad policies have done significant damage to our economy and way of life. But it might be better to go through a little pain now to avoid a lot of pain later. It's like a heroin addict going through withdrawal in the short term in order to have a better life in the long term.

Sure, and if that were all there was to it I might be okay with that. But dozens of economies around the world depend on our trade now. I suspect if we became more protectionist, we would become a global pariah. The collapse that would follow would probably be more in line with what happened in the USSR after the fall of communism. A complete collapse of everything we know. The outcome from there would be impossible to predict.

There is a reason why every politician of every stripe is trying to avoid that situation.

I think our moves forward have to be measured. Implement protectionist policies in limited up and coming markets. Solar power for example, is taking off. Protect that market and a few others like it and slowly build up a domestic industry.

But it's not likely to happen. Politics is controlled by money more than ever and those holding the purse strings are playing long ball. Even if a liberal president and congress pulled it off (unlikely in and of itself) the next administration can simply lift limits or restrictions. We watched this happen with Clinton and Bush. Reasonable regulations are implemented and the next administration dismantled them.

The root of all this is that the population isn't educated enough to understand what is going on. They are easily manipulated by rhetoric.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sure, and if that were all there was to it I might be okay with that. But dozens of economies around the world depend on our trade now. I suspect if we became more protectionist, we would become a global pariah. The collapse that would follow would probably be more in line with what happened in the USSR after the fall of communism. A complete collapse of everything we know. The outcome from there would be impossible to predict.

There is a reason why every politician of every stripe is trying to avoid that situation.

I think our moves forward have to be measured. Implement protectionist policies in limited up and coming markets. Solar power for example, is taking off. Protect that market and a few others like it and slowly build up a domestic industry.

But it's not likely to happen. Politics is controlled by money more than ever and those holding the purse strings are playing long ball. Even if a liberal president and congress pulled it off (unlikely in and of itself) the next administration can simply lift limits or restrictions. We watched this happen with Clinton and Bush. Reasonable regulations are implemented and the next administration dismantled them.

The root of all this is that the population isn't educated enough to understand what is going on. They are easily manipulated by rhetoric.
I like world trade.
IMO, countries trading with each other are less likely to war.
Can you imagine China bombing us?
Wipe out a couple Walmarts, & there goes China's entire economy!
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
I like world trade.
IMO, countries trading with each other are less likely to war.
Can you imagine China bombing us?
Wipe out a couple Walmarts, & there goes China's entire economy!

Like everything else, it is a balancing act. We need world trade, but we have to make sure we leave enough on the table for us.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Like everything else, it is a balancing act. We need world trade, but we have to make sure we leave enough on the table for us.
A bigger danger is the we'll borrow our way to prosperity.
That can't last.
Eventually you run out of other people's money.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
A bigger danger is the we'll borrow our way to prosperity.
That can't last.
Eventually you run out of other people's money.

The problem isn't borrowing. It's that we haven't bothered to pay it down.

Going into debt to get out of recession or war is fine, and that is how it started. We borrowed heavily during and immediately after WW2 but we paid it down after the war. But starting in the 80's we borrowed to get out of a recession then continued borrowing after the recession. Increased spending through the next recession, then continued after the recession. Each time it is harder to justify more borrowing so we spend a bit less and the recession takes that much longer to recover from.

Clinton and the Republicans started us in the right direction but that lasted about 20 minutes. Now I don't know that its even possible to pay it down. But we need desperately to stop adding to the balance. Eventually inflation will solve the problem for us. But that means 20+ years of no deficit spending. Again, not likely.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The problem isn't borrowing. It's that we haven't bothered to pay it down.
Aye, that was my implication.
Going into debt to get out of recession or war is fine, and that is how it started. We borrowed heavily during and immediately after WW2 but we paid it down after the war. But starting in the 80's we borrowed to get out of a recession then continued borrowing after the recession. Increased spending through the next recession, then continued after the recession. Each time it is harder to justify more borrowing so we spend a bit less and the recession takes that much longer to recover from.

Clinton and the Republicans started us in the right direction but that lasted about 20 minutes. Now I don't know that its even possible to pay it down. But we need desperately to stop adding to the balance. Eventually inflation will solve the problem for us. But that means 20+ years of no deficit spending. Again, not likely.
Inflation doesn't solve anything.
It's a multifaceted problem.
- With progressive taxation, it pushes everyone into a higher tax bracket over the years.
- With a capital gains tax, it imposes taxes upon phantom gain, ie, extra dollars required for the same economic value.
- The cost of money is higher. Interest = (base rate of return) + (the expected inflation rate over the life of a loan)
- Government always increases spending in anticipation of this future 'windfall'.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Aye, that was my implication.

Inflation doesn't solve anything.
It's a multifaceted problem.
- With progressive taxation, it pushes everyone into a higher tax bracket over the years.
- With a capital gains tax, it imposes taxes upon phantom gain, ie, extra dollars required for the same economic value.
- The cost of money is higher. Interest = (base rate of return) + (the expected inflation rate over the life of a loan)
- Government always increases spending in anticipation of this future 'windfall'.

It doesn't solve anything for the budget. But the only solution I see for the debt it to pay the interest and wait for inflation to reduce the cost of paying it down.

It's not a good solution but it's the only one I see as remotely viable. Actually paying it down would require the kind of budget slashing nobody will ever do.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure, and if that were all there was to it I might be okay with that. But dozens of economies around the world depend on our trade now. I suspect if we became more protectionist, we would become a global pariah.

We've pretty much already reached the point of global pariah. If we balance that out by withdrawing our military forces around the world and demonstrating a more peaceful and cooperative attitude, then that will win us respect and admiration from the world. I'm not saying to do away with trade altogether, but I think every country realizes that we have to look out for ourselves. If a trade deal isn't working out for us, then most of the world would understand, as it's something that they or any other country would do under similar circumstances. What they truly don't understand is our militarism and interventionist policies. That's what has made us into a pariah more than anything else.

I think the real problem is that America's ruling class has become far too dependent upon imperialism, piracy, and mobsterism that they just can't give it up. It's become too alluring and addictive for them. But if America's people can once and for all force the ruling class to stop these activities, then I believe the world would give us resounding applause.

Maybe a few tinpot dictators and former puppets might grumble, but I doubt that China or Russia would give us any problems. I doubt that Europe would get mad at us - at least not any more than when they found out the NSA was spying on their leaders. Most of Latin America would be relieved to be finally free of US hegemony. The Middle East would no longer have any reason to hate us. It could very well lead to a new spirit of cooperation and friendship between the nations of the world.

The collapse that would follow would probably be more in line with what happened in the USSR after the fall of communism. A complete collapse of everything we know. The outcome from there would be impossible to predict.

I don't think it would be a complete collapse of everything we know. That didn't even happen in the USSR - although if they had done it more incrementally rather than in one fell swoop, it probably would have softened the blow. I think that we could implement changes slowly and gradually, so it won't be such a huge shock, but that's only possible as long as there is a spirit of cooperation and an open-minded willingness to negotiate. The lack of those qualities in America today will lead to bigger problems than the USSR faced in the 1990s.

There is a reason why every politician of every stripe is trying to avoid that situation.

Most politicians nowadays are woefully myopic. They're only thinking in terms of the next election. All they can really do is promise instant gratification and try their best to delay the day of reckoning. They're in too deep with vested interests and beholden to political machines.

I think our moves forward have to be measured. Implement protectionist policies in limited up and coming markets. Solar power for example, is taking off. Protect that market and a few others like it and slowly build up a domestic industry.

Oh yes, definitely. Measured and incremental changes are the preferred way to go. It might be better to do that now rather than have to take emergency measures after disaster has struck.

The bigger problem that we're facing now is that too many politicians and other societal leaders don't even want measured and incremental reforms. There's too much of a "my way or the highway" attitude out there, along with poisonous rhetoric which only makes opposing factions more entrenched and stubborn.

But it's not likely to happen. Politics is controlled by money more than ever and those holding the purse strings are playing long ball. Even if a liberal president and congress pulled it off (unlikely in and of itself) the next administration can simply lift limits or restrictions. We watched this happen with Clinton and Bush. Reasonable regulations are implemented and the next administration dismantled them.

The root of all this is that the population isn't educated enough to understand what is going on. They are easily manipulated by rhetoric.

The population gets a lot of mixed messages, but I sense that a lot of people are vulnerable and prone to manipulation by rhetoric, as you say. But the rhetoric only works if people believe in it, and people will not believe in it if they see deterioration, decline, and despair all around them. The politicians have put themselves in a box where they have no other choice but to do whatever they can to keep the gravy train rolling and keep the public fat, dumb, and happy.

I think the politicians are worried less about how the world will respond to our trade policies than they are about how the American people will react when the gravy train stops and the goodies run out. But there's only so much that the government and the country as a whole can realistically afford and take on. We can't just go on sinking deeper and deeper into debt and not expect some consequences. We can't go on with a lopsided trade deficit indefinitely and not expect some consequences. We can't go on saber-rattling with our military forces all over the world and interfering in the affairs of sovereign nations and not expect some consequences.

The idea of employment guarantee or raising the minimum wage might seem good on the surface, but it doesn't correct the underlying problem.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It doesn't solve anything for the budget. But the only solution I see for the debt it to pay the interest and wait for inflation to reduce the cost of paying it down.

It's not a good solution but it's the only one I see as remotely viable. Actually paying it down would require the kind of budget slashing nobody will ever do.
I favor.....
- End the intentional expansion of the money supply faster than economic growth (inflation).
- Pay off all debt.
- Incur new debt only in emergencies......& then pay it off afterwards.
- Create a strategic bacon reserve.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
I favor.....
- End the intentional expansion of the money supply faster than economic growth (inflation).
- Pay off all debt.
- Incur new debt only in emergencies......& then pay it off afterwards.
- Create a strategic bacon reserve.

I'm with you on that last one. The rest, I would be in favor of if I thought it was possible.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm with you on that last one. The rest, I would be in favor of if I thought it was possible.
It's theoretically possible, but not politically.
So it's a lost cause.

Btw, the patron saint of libertarians.....
e319c1d4b13eeacc11a1693dd8d506c4.jpg
 
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