End of Times Signs and The Antichrist?

[JayJayDee]

The key thing that has not happened but soon will occur is the word will have been heard by the entire planet. That still needs to happen first.

Check out Jesus' words in Matt 24:37-39...."For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."

What if the word has been preached in all the world, but people in general have dismissed it because it came from a source that they did not believe was credible?

"For you behold his calling of you, brothers, that not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God." (1 Cor 1:26-29)

Wasn't this the very reason that the self-righteous religious leaders stumbled over Jesus and his apostles? They had no recognized credentials and were telling people that the orthodox religious teachings they had been raised with, were all wrong. Only a remnant of the Jews responded to Jesus and his disciples. The majority rejected him because he wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear.

Those who dismissed Jesus' preaching based on those assumptions missed out on becoming disciples of the son of God. The Jews to this day, still await their Messiah because they failed to discern the truth. Can't it happen again?

 

[Shiranui117]

You know, when I was researching this word "parousia" I noticed that in Strong's Concordance, (KJV,) the word "parousia" is rendered "coming in every place except Phillipians 2:12.

Yes, because in other contexts, "coming" makes more sense than "presence."

What is even more interesting is that the meaning of the word is listed primarily as "presence"...yet it is translated "coming" in all other verses. Why?
Other Strong's references to the word "coming" are 7125, 935, 1980, 4126.
So it's not all that simple is it? "Presence" is not the same as "coming". If you are already here...you are not on your way.

The meaning of the word wasn't listed "primarily" as anything. Let's take a look at a similar example here:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

The word there is "pneuma," which literally means, "spirit." Now, Strong's Concordance first defines it as "Holy Spirit." However, we see pneuma also translated as angels, demons, souls, spirits, wind, etc. Does this mean that any useage of "pneuma" is predominant over all others? No.

Well, that is my point exactly. What if people have been led by satan and his demons all this time? The apostasy foretold by Jesus was already at work back in the first century..."weeds" of false Christianity were sown a long time ago, right after Jesus sowed "the fine seed"....what if it's been a done deal for centuries and nobody knows? Would you put it past the devil to be able to accomplish that? Both the genuine Christians and the fake ones were to "grow together" until it was time for 'the harvest'. By then the separating would be complete. By the time people see Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven", the separation will be complete and he will instruct his angels to gather the counterfeits and get rid of them.

Wait, how did you get that^
Out of this

Originally Posted by Shiranui117
This will not always be the case, I hope you understand. And in fact, I'm not so sure about the idea that Christ's rule=woe and suffering for man. The REJECTION of Christ's rule may lead to woe for the earth, particularly when those who reject His rule are led by Satan and the demons.

I was talking about the fact that Christ's rule doesn't cause suffering for the Earth. Rebellion against His rule is what causes suffering.

The point of the argument was not so much just the scale but the fact that it was in the history of man, The First WORLD WAR. It was followed by the other parts of the sign.

That was just its name. As I've already proven, there have been other "world wars" before World War 1. World War 1 was NOT the first world war.

Pestilence in the form of the Spanish Flu, killed more people than the war did. Food shortages were created as resources went into the war effort.

It's a common theme that more people die due to sickness and infection than war. For example, during the Thirty Years' War in the 1600's that involved 18 countries and kingdoms, between 25% and 40% of the German population died due to disease and famine. If you wanna talk about food shortages due to a war that lasted 4 years, try to imagine the famines that result from a war lasting thirty years.

World War I's par for the course in terms of devastating wars.

The 20th century has been the bloodiest century in the history of the human race. It suffered through many wars between nations with over 160 million dead, and 64 civil wars with almost six million casualties—not mentioning the tens of millions of civilians slaughtered as well.

Tamerlane of the Timurid Dynasty in the 1300's killed a full 5% of the world population during his imperial expansion. World War II, while bearing with it a gut-wrenching and horrific body count, saw a smaller percentage of the world population die: 2.5%. A couple interesting statistics for you.

Nuclear capability took us to the brink of total destruction, not only of mankind but of the earth as well.

But nothing happened. People just let paranoia get the best of them.

As weaponry has continued to become more sophisticated, more and more accurate delivery systems see their targets wiped out with extraordinary precision.

This doesn't necessarily mean we're getting closer to the end times.

The Bible foretells a time in the near future when a cry of "Peace and security" will go out to mankind, but it will be followed by the greatest tribulation in our history. (1 Thess 5:1-6; Matt 24:21)

People have always been crying out for peace and security. So when does the greatest tribulation in history come? Has it already come and gone? Is it yet to come?

True, there have always been wars...but not like the ones we have seen since 1914. Not with the weaponry and not with scale of bloodshed.

Alright, so we have more advanced technology. That doesn't prove anything.

"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." (2 Tim 3:1-5)

When have human beings ever been as pleasure seeking as they are today? The world over we see ungrateful, disobedient youths running amok.
People are selfish, with no self control, lovers of money and the things money can buy.
Some will kill for a pair of designer label shoes! showing a predicted "increasing in lawlessness".

Kids these days are the worst they've ever been." - Aristotle

But seriously, every generation thinks their own is the worst. Everyone thinks the previous generations were better, wiser, holier, more disciplined and less barbaric, and that the current generation is going to make everything go to Hell in a handbasket.

Add to that the "great earthquakes in one place after another" we have seen in recent times, and we have the sign Jesus gave fulfilled in every detail. Is this all just coincidence?

I think this is just due to the fact that now we can get news from all over the world at a very fast rate. In previous generations, we didn't have the technology to know what was happening in Indonesia. We didn't know what was happening in Kazakhstan or Haiti. We only heard about the truly catastrophic things, like when Krakatoa's eruption in the 1800's was the shot heard round the world, and when the ash it blew into the sky turned the skies black and caused snow to fall in June.

I really don't think earthquakes are happening at any more of a rapid rate than usual. We just have the technology to hear about them more often, and to see the damage they've caused.

 

[kjw47]

Yes, because in other contexts, "coming" makes more sense than "presence."

The meaning of the word wasn't listed "primarily" as anything. Let's take a look at a similar example here:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

The word there is "pneuma," which literally means, "spirit." Now, Strong's Concordance first defines it as "Holy Spirit." However, we see pneuma also translated as angels, demons, souls, spirits, wind, etc. Does this mean that any useage of "pneuma" is predominant over all others? No.

Wait, how did you get that^
Out of this

I was talking about the fact that Christ's rule doesn't cause suffering for the Earth. Rebellion against His rule is what causes suffering.

That was just its name. As I've already proven, there have been other "world wars" before World War 1. World War 1 was NOT the first world war.

It's a common theme that more people die due to sickness and infection than war. For example, during the Thirty Years' War in the 1600's that involved 18 countries and kingdoms, between 25% and 40% of the German population died due to disease and famine. If you wanna talk about food shortages due to a war that lasted 4 years, try to imagine the famines that result from a war lasting thirty years.

World War I's par for the course in terms of devastating wars.

Tamerlane of the Timurid Dynasty in the 1300's killed a full 5% of the world population during his imperial expansion. World War II, while bearing with it a gut-wrenching and horrific body count, saw a smaller percentage of the world population die: 2.5%. A couple interesting statistics for you.

But nothing happened. People just let paranoia get the best of them.

This doesn't necessarily mean we're getting closer to the end times.

People have always been crying out for peace and security. So when does the greatest tribulation in history come? Has it already come and gone? Is it yet to come?

Alright, so we have more advanced technology. That doesn't prove anything.
Kids these days are the worst they've ever been." - Aristotle

But seriously, every generation thinks their own is the worst. Everyone thinks the previous generations were better, wiser, holier, more disciplined and less barbaric, and that the current generation is going to make everything go to Hell in a handbasket.

I think this is just due to the fact that now we can get news from all over the world at a very fast rate. In previous generations, we didn't have the technology to know what was happening in Indonesia. We didn't know what was happening in Kazakhstan or Haiti. We only heard about the truly catastrophic things, like when Krakatoa's eruption in the 1800's was the shot heard round the world, and when the ash it blew into the sky turned the skies black and caused snow to fall in June.

I really don't think earthquakes are happening at any more of a rapid rate than usual. We just have the technology to hear about them more often, and to see the damage they've caused.

I would say that when earthquakes were mentioned that it actually meant disasters in one place after the other.

 

[Shiranui117]

I would say that when earthquakes were mentioned that it actually meant disasters in one place after the other.

Then the same principle still applies: It only seems like there's more disasters, because they're more widely reported nowadays. There are also larger population centers that are affected, due to the growth rate of the human race, thus lending to the idea that we have more destructive disasters these days, even if the number of occurrences as well as the magnitude of natural disasters remains constant.

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes, because in other contexts, "coming" makes more sense than "presence."

Does it? If "coming" is totally inappropriate in Phil 2:12, then why is is not translated "presence" in any of the other verses? It only 'doesn't make sense' if you are expecting the opposite of what the Bible says actually took place. People look for Jesus' 'coming', and when they don't "see" him, they assume that he hasn't arrived. But he has already taken up his post and is actively directing the preaching work that he assigned for this time period. (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20) He is already here 'with' his true disciples, just as he promised, guiding them and separating people based on their response to the preaching work..... why would Jesus give a 'sign of his presence' if everything was going to be visible at his coming?

The meaning of the word wasn't listed "primarily" as anything. Let's take a look at a similar example here:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
The word there is "pneuma," which literally means, "spirit." Now, Strong's Concordance first defines it as "Holy Spirit." However, we see pneuma also translated as angels, demons, souls, spirits, wind, etc. Does this mean that any useage of "pneuma" is predominant over all others? No.

But it demonstrates that bias in any direction can create translation errors. If one word can be translated so many ways, we need to understand the meaning behind every instance where the same original language word is used, to see what thought was intended....and who may have twisted it to give a false translation?

For example, if the word "nephesh" (soul) can be translated as 'soul', 'life', 'creature', & 'self'...how does that gel with how we are taught to understand the meaning of the word "soul"?
“Our lives for your lives!” (Josh 2:14) is literally our "souls" for your "souls".
And animals are also called "souls" because 'nephesh' can be translated as "creature". How does that mesh with the current understanding of the word "soul" as taught in Christendom?

Another classic translation nightmare is the word "hell" taken from 'sheol' , 'hades', gehenna and tartarus. These words are not uniformly translated and create much confusion as to their true meaning.

I was talking about the fact that Christ's rule doesn't cause suffering for the Earth. Rebellion against His rule is what causes suffering.

Revelation links Christs rule with the ousting of satan and his demons from heaven. This is what causes "woe for the earth", not rebellion against Christ's rule. The 'great tribulation' that results from man's efforts to bring peace by effectively getting rid of religion, the world's greatest divider. (Matt 24:21) They have already started.

Satan and his hordes are confined to the earth and they are out to wreak havoc; angry because their time is almost up.....but heaven is glad to be rid of them for good. (Rev 12:9-12) Have you not observed the increase in supernaturally based themes in movies and the graphic depiction of violence and simulated sex on our screens for entertainment? How much of it also takes place in cyber space? You think the devil is not busy?

That was just its name. As I've already proven, there have been other "world wars" before World War 1. World War 1 was NOT the first world war.......This doesn't necessarily mean we're getting closer to the end times.

It was originally called "The Great War" but with the outbreak of WW2 they changed the name to the "First World War" followed by the "Second World War". If it were not the first of it's kind, then why the designation? Wouldn't historians be jumping up and down about the inaccuracy? I don't believe I have ever heard anyone question it.

People have always been crying out for peace and security. So when does the greatest tribulation in history come? Has it already come and gone? Is it yet to come?

According to scripture...it is looming on the horizon right now. The dominoes are poised to fall....it only takes one event to trigger the rest.

Look what precipitated WW1. The prospects for peace had never seemed greater, then out of the blue, the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand in Sarajevo triggered the events that led to WW1. Treaties and alliances saw the whole world plunged into an unexpected conflict that came seemingly out of nowhere.

Alright, so we have more advanced technology. That doesn't prove anything.
Kids these days are the worst they've ever been." - Aristotle

But seriously, every generation thinks their own is the worst. Everyone thinks the previous generations were better, wiser, holier, more disciplined and less barbaric, and that the current generation is going to make everything go to Hell in a handbasket.

Even in nations where youths were previously respectful, this is no longer the case. Social networking has opened up associations (friendships) with very undesirable influences in all nations. Our youth has been captured by electronic devices designed to make them isolate from family and congregate with those who would lead them into all sorts of trouble.....led away from all things decent and wholesome. There is no respect for life, for parents, the elderly or each other.

I really don't think earthquakes are happening at any more of a rapid rate than usual. We just have the technology to hear about them more often, and to see the damage they've caused.

The Bible foretold the events and we are seeing them, just as it says. News or not...it is happening right before our eyes. These are the last days. Believe it or not.

If it was prophesied that people would ridicule and ignore the evidence, why would we be surprised when people make excuses or scoff? (Matt 24:37-39)

"For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men." (2 Pet 3:3-7)

The warning is being sounded......who is listening? :sad:

 

[Reverend Rick]

Lets all be mindful that this particular thread is for Christians only and respectful questions from non-christians. No debate is allowed among Christians as well in a DIR, (discuss individual religions).

 

[Reverend Rick]

Check out Jesus' words in Matt 24:37-39...."For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."

What if the word has been preached in all the world, but people in general have dismissed it because it came from a source that they did not believe was credible?

"For you behold his calling of you, brothers, that not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God." (1 Cor 1:26-29)

Wasn't this the very reason that the self-righteous religious leaders stumbled over Jesus and his apostles? They had no recognized credentials and were telling people that the orthodox religious teachings they had been raised with, were all wrong. Only a remnant of the Jews responded to Jesus and his disciples. The majority rejected him because he wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear.

Those who dismissed Jesus' preaching based on those assumptions missed out on becoming disciples of the son of God. The Jews to this day, still await their Messiah because they failed to discern the truth. Can't it happen again?

My point was that people all over the world have heard the word or we are very close to everyone on the planet hearing the word. Hearing is one thing, believing was not really expected.

I think it has much more to do with what people choose. At least they where offered the gift of salvation.

 

[JayJayDee]

My point was that people all over the world have heard the word or we are very close to everyone on the planet hearing the word. Hearing is one thing, believing was not really expected.

Exactly. The word of God is more available to people on earth today, as at no other time in history. Even if you have no physical Bible to hold in your hand, the internet provides many translations of God's word online for people of all nations.

The prophet Daniel said that an 'abundance of knowledge' was to be expected in this "time of the end". (Dan 12:4) There is an abundance of knowledge all right, but the devil has cashed in on this too...making sure that people are confused as to the real truth.

I think it has much more to do with what people choose. At least they where offered the gift of salvation.

Yes, people will continue to believe whatever their hearts impel them to believe because it is their hearts that speak to God, not just their actions. Many have decided to "shop" for their beliefs, using the many church systems like some kind of spiritual 'supermarket'. They often end up with their very own 'religion'. It suits "them" but not a lot of thought has gone into whether it suits the Creator or not.
God will not prevent that, in fact he just let's them choose and follow their heart's desire. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

The preaching is been carried out in every nation, but the response, as you said, will not necessarily result in "belief".

 

[Reverend Rick]

Exactly. The word of God is more available to people on earth today, as at no other time in history. Even if you have no physical Bible to hold in your hand, the internet provides many translations of God's word online for people of all nations.

The prophet Daniel said that an 'abundance of knowledge' was to be expected in this "time of the end". (Dan 12:4) There is an abundance of knowledge all right, but the devil has cashed in on this too...making sure that people are confused as to the real truth.

Yes, people will continue to believe whatever their hearts impel them to believe because it is their hearts that speak to God, not just their actions. Many have decided to "shop" for their beliefs, using the many church systems like some kind of spiritual 'supermarket'. They often end up with their very own 'religion'. It suits "them" but not a lot of thought has gone into whether it suits the Creator or not.
God will not prevent that, in fact he just let's them choose and follow their heart's desire. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

The preaching is been carried out in every nation, but the response, as you said, will not necessarily result in "belief".

Great post Brother Jay Jay!

 

[Shiranui117]

Does it? If "coming" is totally inappropriate in Phil 2:12, then why is is not translated "presence" in any of the other verses? It only 'doesn't make sense' if you are expecting the opposite of what the Bible says actually took place. People look for Jesus' 'coming', and when they don't "see" him, they assume that he hasn't arrived. But he has already taken up his post and is actively directing the preaching work that he assigned for this time period. (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20) He is already here 'with' his true disciples, just as he promised, guiding them and separating people based on their response to the preaching work..... why would Jesus give a 'sign of his presence' if everything was going to be visible at his coming?

But it demonstrates that bias in any direction can create translation errors. If one word can be translated so many ways, we need to understand the meaning behind every instance where the same original language word is used, to see what thought was intended....and who may have twisted it to give a false translation?

For example, if the word "nephesh" (soul) can be translated as 'soul', 'life', 'creature', & 'self'...how does that gel with how we are taught to understand the meaning of the word "soul"?
“Our lives for your lives!” (Josh 2:14) is literally our "souls" for your "souls".
And animals are also called "souls" because 'nephesh' can be translated as "creature". How does that mesh with the current understanding of the word "soul" as taught in Christendom?

Another classic translation nightmare is the word "hell" taken from 'sheol' , 'hades', gehenna and tartarus. These words are not uniformly translated and create much confusion as to their true meaning.

Revelation links Christs rule with the ousting of satan and his demons from heaven. This is what causes "woe for the earth", not rebellion against Christ's rule. The 'great tribulation' that results from man's efforts to bring peace by effectively getting rid of religion, the world's greatest divider. (Matt 24:21) They have already started.

Satan and his hordes are confined to the earth and they are out to wreak havoc; angry because their time is almost up.....but heaven is glad to be rid of them for good. (Rev 12:9-12) Have you not observed the increase in supernaturally based themes in movies and the graphic depiction of violence and simulated sex on our screens for entertainment? How much of it also takes place in cyber space? You think the devil is not busy?

It was originally called "The Great War" but with the outbreak of WW2 they changed the name to the "First World War" followed by the "Second World War". If it were not the first of it's kind, then why the designation? Wouldn't historians be jumping up and down about the inaccuracy? I don't believe I have ever heard anyone question it.

According to scripture...it is looming on the horizon right now. The dominoes are poised to fall....it only takes one event to trigger the rest.

Look what precipitated WW1. The prospects for peace had never seemed greater, then out of the blue, the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand in Sarajevo triggered the events that led to WW1. Treaties and alliances saw the whole world plunged into an unexpected conflict that came seemingly out of nowhere.

Even in nations where youths were previously respectful, this is no longer the case. Social networking has opened up associations (friendships) with very undesirable influences in all nations. Our youth has been captured by electronic devices designed to make them isolate from family and congregate with those who would lead them into all sorts of trouble.....led away from all things decent and wholesome. There is no respect for life, for parents, the elderly or each other.

The Bible foretold the events and we are seeing them, just as it says. News or not...it is happening right before our eyes. These are the last days. Believe it or not.

If it was prophesied that people would ridicule and ignore the evidence, why would we be surprised when people make excuses or scoff? (Matt 24:37-39)

"For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men." (2 Pet 3:3-7)

The warning is being sounded......who is listening? :sad:

I see the mods have already given their warning, so I'll restrain myself from responding here. But if you'd like to continue this tangent on a proper debate forum, I'd be more than happy to respond to all of this elsewhere.

 

[JayJayDee]

I see the mods have already given their warning, so I'll restrain myself from responding here. But if you'd like to continue this tangent on a proper debate forum, I'd be more than happy to respond to all of this elsewhere.

Been there done that. :trampo: No point if we are not getting anywhere.

If you don't believe that we are in the final part of the last days, then nothing I could say will convince you. Like those in Noah's day, by the time you actually 'see' the evidence, it will be somewhat too late.
I'll save my energy for more productive topics. :snoopy: Thanks anyway.

 

[Nadia Faiazova]

Disciple John’s inspired statements show the term to be broad in its application, embracing all those who deny that “Jesus is the Christ,” and who deny that Jesus is the Son of God who came “in the flesh.”—1Jo 2:22; 4:2,*3; 2Jo 7,
Denial of Jesus as the Christ and as the Son of God of necessity embraces the denial of any or all of the Scriptural teachings concerning him: his origin, his place in God’s arrangement, his fulfillment of the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures as the promised Messiah, his ministry and teachings and prophecies, as well as any opposition to or efforts to replace him in his position as God’s appointed High Priest and King.