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End times?

What's your view?

  • Christian historic premillennialism

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • Christian dispensational premillennialism

    Votes: 3 6.5%
  • Christian amillennialism

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Christian postmillennialism

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Hindu Kalki

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • Jewish Messiah

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Buddhist Maitreya

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Something else

    Votes: 25 54.3%
  • You mean the party's going to end?

    Votes: 5 10.9%
  • None - I'm an atheist

    Votes: 15 32.6%

  • Total voters
    46

nPeace

Veteran Member
Why, because we didn't start with such a belief - as you seem to agree here about earlier beliefs - and as I mentioned, most likely just an evolution of ideas and thinking that is as natural as evolution is in our physical and mental natures. And we still don't have a consensus on a single God.
...but we do. There is a consensus - 100%.
It is actually more unanimous than the 98% who agree on evolution, with their different debates on if, how, when, or why it could happen.

Except that what you see all around you and use every day is witness to the fact that science in general works very well. Religions on the other hand are still warring with each other - because they are stuck in the past where they originated all too often. Hence why so many with religious beliefs seem to be at war with science when it fails to support whatever religious doctrine is espoused.
Scientist don't war with each other? Surely, you are not blind to that fact.
The argument you present here seems to be taking a biased point of view.

Religion works. Because there is bad religion, that doesn't stop it from working.
Do you think the scientists that disagree with the ideas of other scientists determine what works?

Or are they not scientists?
If we are going to be fair...

Bad religion being - that which is not yours?
No. Why would you say a thing like that?

Well guess what, this is what someone of another religion might feel too.
I have heard scientists discredit other scientists who disagree with them... even going so far as to count them as non-scientists.
So what are you trying to say, here.

Religions have always enslaved people - to fixed beliefs mostly - and where some are rather more difficult to change than others.
Sounds a lot like scientists... and did you hear how other scientists describe them? Full of hubris, seeking Noble Prizes.

And all the things you quoted as being bad seem to happen across religions, and hence just being an aspect of human nature. Since when did any religion purge such behaviour from its religious followers?
Are you saying that for religion to be good, it's members must be sinless - perfect?
I hope that's not what you are thinking, because no body (actual body, that is) on earth is perfect, and has no defects.
It's not possible to get something perfect from something imperfect.
Just look at science for example. What part of it is perfect?
You aren't looking for perfection, are you?

Oh dear. Got to run. Be back later.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
...but we do. There is a consensus - 100%.
It is actually more unanimous than the 98% who agree on evolution, with their different debates on if, how, when, or why it could happen.


Scientist don't war with each other? Surely, you are not blind to that fact.
The argument you present here seems to be taking a biased point of view.

Religion works. Because there is bad religion, that doesn't stop it from working.
Do you think the scientists that disagree with the ideas of other scientists determine what works?

Or are they not scientists?
If we are going to be fair...


No. Why would you say a thing like that?


I have heard scientists discredit other scientists who disagree with them... even going so far as to count them as non-scientists.
So what are you trying to say, here.


Sounds a lot like scientists... and did you hear how other scientists describe them? Full of hubris, seeking Noble Prizes.


Are you saying that for religion to be good, it's members must be sinless - perfect?
I hope that's not what you are thinking, because no body (actual body, that is) on earth is perfect, and has no defects.
It's not possible to get something perfect from something imperfect.
Just look at science for example. What part of it is perfect?
You aren't looking for perfection, are you?

Oh dear. Got to run. Be back later.
I'm not sure there is any point in continuing this conversation, given we are just refuting what the other says. And such is why I usually don't get into such discussions about religious beliefs - when there is little agreement on so many basic issues. :oops:
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Not for me - given that I don't think evil is a useful concept, especially in the way that it is used by the religious most often. Praying for redemption and to become a better person is less likely to do so than understanding why someone has committed some bad behaviour and to enact something that does change them. Evil is more like a life sentence or execution condemnation, hence why it is not useful, given that change seems impossible but actually might be possible. And perhaps it is easier for the religious to accept - since they are so keen to follow rules and commandments - but not so useful in reality where we are all mostly flawed human beings..
What you think, and what I think, is not important, is it? We will see that at some point in time, if we haven't yet done so.

I didn't say science was a path to truth, but that what it shows us tends towards reality, and if one dismisses much of science then one is on the wrong road. Such things as how we are related to other life, how we have evolved, the age of the Earth and the universe, etc., all have good evidence so as to be believable as to being what actually happened. This is why I'm not so keen to discuss with you (and others) when they can't even accept what even the larger numbers of the religious also accept - as to science mostly reflecting reality - and as to why I'm too old to want to bother educating others when it is their responsibility to do so. If you prefer to believe some religious explanation why would anyone deny you of this?.
Well, I don't see the need to try to open the eyes of anyone who doesn't want to have them opened either.

Well many religions might be right as to aspects of human nature - just as anyone who has keen observation might do so, and which can be seen in recorded literature over the ages. But, since we have so many different religious beliefs, and all not agreeing, we must conclude that they all cannot be correct, and perhaps none are. Given the option of choosing one is perhaps not so good when they appear much the same, behave much the same, and tend to have the same life histories - besides all the conflicts that have ensued from them..
Well that's clearly a biased opinion, since, it's not based on fact, but one's personal opinion.

If one looks at the skulls of our ancestors going back through time, the evidence we have (inadequate as it is given the understandable shortage of specimens) tends to show the shape has changed along with the size, such that this should be reflected in what the skull encased - the brain - and hence it is likely that the various bits of the brain have evolved as much as other parts of our bodies..
Looking at different animal's brain size, and thinking that one must have come before the other, makes sense to you?

I recall when they were saying that fossils of many animals were ancient and extinct... you know... evolved to something else, and gone off the scene... until they turned up. Then they coined a name - living fossils.

I also remember when they were saying, evolution is a slow gradual process, until explosions of complex living things hit them left right and center, and they started scratching their heads, and arguing with each other.
One well known expert coined the term, punctuated equilibrium.

Yes, I know of the stories you believe, but they are no more reality than Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs... to many of us.
The majority don't believe them either.
Just because more scientists believe, that doesn't make them true, and the minority are thousands, not just a handful of reputable, intelligent scientists... experts in the field... with Noble prizes, and positions as heads in their field. What?

If it were so clear, that could not happen. Nobody disagrees that light is made up of spectrums of color.
So, you are of course free to believe one thing or the other, but no, it's not a reality, nor as clear as you... and other, want to claim.

Hardly, since as I mentioned earlier no doubt, all the various branches of science do not dispute this and in general support this as being true. If any part of science did show an anomaly then it would have appeared like a sore thumb by now. You will find very few scientists who disagree about the timescales of the universe, the Earth forming, life forming, and the evolution of the human species..
Did you mean to say the various scientists in various branches?
Appealing to authority again? What's with the fallacy? Doesn't do much for any argument.

Consensus Science and the Peer Review
It is our responsibility as scientists, physicians, reviewers, and/or editors to be alert and always remember that “[I would remind you to notice where the claim of] consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough. Nobody says the consensus of scientists agrees that E = mc2. Nobody says the consensus is that the sun is 93 million miles away. It would never occur to anyone to speak that way” (M. Crichton).

In 1843, Oliver Wendell Holmes claimed puerperal fever was contagious, and presented compelling evidence. The consensus said no.

In 1849, Semmelweiss demonstrated that sanitary techniques virtually eliminated puerperal fever in hospitals under his management. The consensus said he was a Jew, ignored him, and dismissed him from his post. There was in fact no agreement on puerperal fever until the start of the twentieth century. Thus the consensus took one hundred and twenty five years to arrive at the right conclusion despite the efforts of the prominent “skeptics” around the world, skeptics who were demeaned and ignored. And despite the constant ongoing deaths of women.

There is no shortage of other examples.

When Continental Drift Was Considered Pseudoscience

Earlier forms of such..
They suppose... as you do.

No, I meant that is why many can't believe in evolution because they prefer to believe 'God did it'. For some that is, given that many with religious beliefs - perhaps the majority too - can actually accept most of science but still retain their beliefs in God. Given that they no doubt will just point to God influencing evolution or whatever - rather than the direct acting as some, like yourself, seem to prefer to believe - because it was written in the Bible perhaps and this must be taken literally.
I believe in creation, for a number of reasons, and none of those reason include preference. Maybe you prefer to believe in evolution? Yes?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I'm not sure there is any point in continuing this conversation, given we are just refuting what the other says. And such is why I usually don't get into such discussions about religious beliefs - when there is little agreement on so many basic issues. :oops:
Okay. I understand. Nice talking to you. Take care.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I mean...something will end us. Might be us. Might be the Sun expires.

Perhaps by then we have some sort of interstellar travel setup, and we jet off to some far flung speck of the universe to continue our existence.

Perhaps not.
This.

If we succeed not to destroy ourselves we also have to find a way to evacuate the planet before the Sun ends the story.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..I'm sure we're already in the events of the Biblical end times, the appointed time of the end, and much closer to the actual second coming of Christ than even the Christians realize.

But like Newton said, let time be the interpreter.
I agree..
The advent of tall buildings has spread worldwide, and the gap between rich & poor increasing.
We see catastrophes happening one after another due to the man-made climate-change that started in the industrial revolution, when much of Europe became divided and started usurious banking.
 
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