Enemies of Israel

[Redemptionsong]

Are the enemies of Israel also the enemies of God?

Psalm 83:1-5
'Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
They have taken crafty counsel against thy hidden ones.
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:'

 

[Orbit]

Seeing as God allowed the Babylonians to carry them off into exile, I'd say no.

 

[metis]

Are the enemies of Israel also the enemies of God?

Since the scriptures as highly subjective, imo, I don't believe as such.

 

[sun rise]

Israel? The corrupt Prime Minister and his apartheid policies? The ultra-orthodox inhabitants. The small but vital pro-reconciliation people? Israel is all of these and more.

And who is an 'enemy'. Iran? Saudi Arabia? Antisemites? Political opponents?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Since the scriptures as highly subjective, imo, I don't believe as such.

You don't believe the scriptures are God-breathed?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Don't mix your scripture with modern day geopolitical realities.
Israel is a settler colonial state which has made international enemies by committing atrocities locally and allying itself with American imperialism.

How can you not mix scripture with a nation that has become re-established in the land of its ancestors? Do you not think that God is behind the return of Jews to the Holy Land?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Seeing as God allowed the Babylonians to carry them off into exile, I'd say no.

If God allowed the Jews to be carried away, why should He not allow them to return to the same land?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Israel? The corrupt Prime Minister and his apartheid policies? The ultra-orthodox inhabitants. The small but vital pro-reconciliation people? Israel is all of these and more.

And who is an 'enemy'. Iran? Saudi Arabia? Antisemites? Political opponents?

If one continues to read Psalm 83, we find the names of the enemies who are confederate against Israel. They include:
The tabernacles of Edom
The Ishmaelites of Moab
The Hagarenes
Gebal
Ammon
Amalek
The Philistines
The inhabitants of Tyre
Assur also is joined with them.

 

[metis]

You don't believe the scriptures are God-breathed?

Within theological circles, there traditionally have been varying opinions as to the extent of Divine inspiration and exactly what that supposedly entails. As for me, I have no answer for that. However, I have no doubt whatsoever that secular cultural values are at the least partially involved.

 

[Orbit]

If God allowed the Jews to be carried away, why should He not allow them to return to the same land?

That wasn't the question you were asking.

 

[Redemptionsong]

That wasn't the question you were asking.

True. But just because God used the Babylonians to bring about Jewish exile does not mean that the Babylonians were friends with God. The Babylonians may have been the enemy of God, whilst being used to accomplish His purpose.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This idea that the Christians need to "bless" the Jews in all their endeavors is some Christian Zionist garbage that was made up in the 19th century or so and the Evangelicals latched onto it, especially the ones who think that the Jews returning to Israel is a sign of the Second Coming. It's bs and not part of historical Christian theology. Traditionally, it was seen that the Church inherited the promises of Israel and is spiritual Israel. The non-believing Jews were seen as lost for the moment until they repent and confess as a group that Jesus is Lord after he returns. Now this has been thrown out in mainstream Christianity because of the Holocaust and the wish not to offend people.

 

[1213]

Are the enemies of Israel also the enemies of God?...

I believe so. But, I think it is good to notice, there can be also enemies within the nation of Israel.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I believe so. But, I think it is good to notice, there can be also enemies within the nation of Israel.

Yes, but according to Ezekiel 36 and 37 God intends to cleanse his people.

'For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.'

Sounds good to me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are the enemies of Israel also the enemies of God?

Psalm 83:1-5
'Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
They have taken crafty counsel against thy hidden ones.
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:'

I see this is prophecy giving the timeless picture of God's Messengers.

What does it mean to cut them off, well let's first consider what Israel means.

From the Hebrew name יִשְׂרָאֵל (Yisra'el)
meaning "God contends", from the roots שָׂרָה (sarah) meaning "to contend, to fight" and אֵל ('el) meaning "God".

So it could simple. Mean every time God sends a Messenger people arise against the Messenger to prevent the Message growing into a Nation under One God.

Israel has another turn, this time it is Baha'u'llah who has called the world to the One God and the fight is on, the world against God and the Messenger is being fought.

That's how I see it.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

I see this is prophecy giving the timeless picture of God's Messengers.

What does it mean to cut them off, well let's first consider what Israel means.

From the Hebrew name יִשְׂרָאֵל (Yisra'el)
meaning "God contends", from the roots שָׂרָה (sarah) meaning "to contend, to fight" and אֵל ('el) meaning "God".

So it could simple. Mean every time God sends a Messenger people arise against the Messenger to prevent the Message growing into a Nation under One God.

Israel has another turn, this time it is Baha'u'llah who has called the world to the One God and the fight is on, the world against God and the Messenger is being fought.

That's how I see it.

Regards Tony

What does Baha'u'llah have to say about Israel, both as a people and as a land?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What does Baha'u'llah have to say about Israel, both as a people and as a land?

To me the best way to answer that is that all we need to do is read the promise made by God about Israel. Israel has a great future.

Also we need to consider prophecy about Zion, the New Jerusalem (abode of peace), Mount Carmel and the return of Israel to the people that accept the Message.

Now consider how Jesus was given Israel. Muhammad was given Israel and now the Bab and Baha'u'llah have been given Israel.

All that is now needed is a change in people's fames of reference to understand we only have One God and all the Mesengers were pointing us to this day, a day where the unity of all humanity is possible.

The law is going out from Zion, from the arc on Mount Carmel, where the arc of the Covernant was fulfilled. I really do not see how people can not see, that God has said that no Message has ever been given so clearly, yet we still hold on to past dogma and superstition.

We are indeed hard to please.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

To me the best way to answer that is that all we need to do is read the promise made by God about Israel. Israel has a great future.

Also we need to consider prophecy about Zion, the New Jerusalem (abode of peace), Mount Carmel and the return of Israel to the people that accept the Message.

Now consider how Jesus was given Israel. Muhammad was given Israel and now the Bab and Baha'u'llah have been given Israel.

All that is now needed is a change in people's fames of reference to understand we only have One God and all the Mesengers were pointing us to this day, a day where the unity of all humanity is possible.

The law is going out from Zion, from the arc on Mount Carmel, where the arc of the Covernant was fulfilled. I really do not see how people can not see, that God has said that no Message has ever been given so clearly, yet we still hold on to past dogma and superstition.

We are indeed hard to please.

View attachment 45410
Regards Tony

Sorry, Tony, this makes no sense to me!

You can begin again with one God, the Creator. That I understand.

Do all Bahai 'messengers' act with singleness of mind and intention? In your opinion, are there no inconsistencies between the messages delivered by, say, Muhammad and Jesus?

How do you account for the Jewish belief in the Holy Land as an inheritance? Genesis 13:15. 'For all the land which thou [Abram] seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever.'

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You can begin again with one God, the Creator. That I understand.

That I see is our path to unity.

Do all Bahai 'messengers' act with singleness of mind and intention? In your opinion, are there no inconsistencies between the messages delivered by, say, Muhammad and Jesus?

Yes that is how I see it, all the Messengers are from the same Holy Spirit. They teach the same core spiritual truths, that remain unchanged and they teach specifics for the age the Message is given.

I do have the explanations given by Baha'u'llah that make it clear for me though, that others may not have yet considered.

How do you account for the Jewish belief in the Holy Land as an inheritance? Genesis 13:15. 'For all the land which thou [Abram] seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever.

I see they have that inheritance back, I see they will eventually embrace Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah makes it very clear;

"...,. O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muḥammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayán to be sent down unto you (Bab), lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty. He, verily, is the Truth, the Knower of things unseen.... "

Regards Tony

 

[MNoBody]

Yes, but according to Ezekiel 36 and 37 God intends to cleanse his people.

'For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.'

Sounds good to me.

perhaps G-d needs a better type of soap, the one allegedly being used isn't working that well....from most accounts in any case.