Enlightenment

[YmirGF]

This world is a playground for souls to mature in until they "grow up" and leave the playground to go be with God.

Comments like this just make me cringe.

 

[Arav]

Comments like this just make me cringe.

May I ask why?

I feel that its very positive, that we shouldnt force ourselves but that it will happen when its ready. All will come in due time. All thats needed is that we experiance this world and once we experiance everything, we then want to experiance the last thing we can here, Parasiva. Then we are liberated. This world is not bad, it is God's perfect creation. Jnanaguru Yogaswami once said that there is not one thing in the world that is not perfect. Its only our perspective thats wrong. So this world is a great garden, or playground, or whatever you want to call it, where we can grow spiritualy towards God.

 

[katiafish]

True, but you must first transcend the mind to understand that. Isnt the transcendance of the mind "nirvana" or "enlightenment"? I would say yes, so even though from the perspective of the Sage the labels are meaningless, from the other perspectives they have meaning and are real. Can a dog really transcend its perspective to the supreme one?

There is much Sadhana to be done, along with tapas. Preperation for the Supreme experiance of non-experiance is the path, I dont believe that many people can do this, let alone a dog. Much spiritual maturity must be aquired and that only happens threw experiance. This world is a playground for souls to mature in until they "grow up" and leave the playground to go be with God. In my view, a dog is not of the spiritual maturity in its life to take on such Sadhanas. Perhaps in a few more lives.

In the seeking of the transcendance you are loosing the sight of it, in using so many labels you are loosing whats behind those labels. Perhaps stay still and listen a little?

Question is, does the dog use the labels same as how we do, does it perceive the reality as a whole? And this whole thing about leaving some playground to be with God, lol, God is in YOU at all times, queston is just in the awareness of it.. May be that is what you call a spiritual maturity ...

 

[Arav]

In the seeking of the transcendance you are loosing the sight of it, in using so many labels you are loosing whats behind those labels. Perhaps stay still and listen a little?

Question is, does the dog use the labels same as how we do, does it perceive the reality as a whole? And this whole thing about leaving some playground to be with God, lol, God is in YOU at all times, queston is just in the awareness of it.. May be that is what you call a spiritual maturity ...

Our beliefs are different and thats ok, because in Saiva Siddhanta its not just "Be still and then you find your already it". There is a whole process that is done. Your right in that you are already it and that you just have to become aware of it, but why dont you just do it then? Becuase you have to move your awareness to that area. And I dont know why YmirGF cringes and you "lol" at the playground analogy because Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, Satguru Bodhinatha Veylanswami, me and many other hindus believe in that. And we are very well aware that God is in me, out of me, and is me. In Saiva Siddhanta we say that Siva is the creator and the creation. But its not as simple as just "being" it. After many lifetimes of subtle samskaras and mental impressions, you cant just "pop" into enlightenment. You must burn away the Anava, Karma, and impressions that are deep in your Consciousness. To find God, you have to do Sadhana, Tapas, Bhakti, and other things. When we in Saiva Siddhanta talk about God Realization, we are NOT talking about becomming one with the universal Consciousness. No, we are talking about merging with PARASIVA, which is altogether beyond Consciousness. Merging with the Universal energy or Consciousness is just Savikalpa Samadhi, but full God Realization or merging with Parasiva is Nirvikalpa Samadhi, beyond form, time, space, and even consciousness.

 

[YmirGF]

So this world is a great garden, or playground, or whatever you want to call it, where we can grow spiritualy towards God.

My take on this is that as long as one maintains presumptions about god they are not very far and are perhaps little more than superficial "pond skimmers". When folks abandon their preconceptions about reality they just might find that reality has been staring them in the face for a very long time.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

When folks abandon their preconceptions about reality they just might find that reality has been staring them in the face for a very long time.

Well if my understanding of what that means is the same as what you intended it to mean, then you are getting nearer to understanding,.....one free from preconceptions that is.

 

[katiafish]

Our beliefs are different and thats ok, because in Saiva Siddhanta its not just "Be still and then you find your already it". There is a whole process that is done. Your right in that you are already it and that you just have to become aware of it, but why dont you just do it then? Becuase you have to move your awareness to that area. And I dont know why YmirGF cringes and you "lol" at the playground analogy because Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, Satguru Bodhinatha Veylanswami, me and many other hindus believe in that. And we are very well aware that God is in me, out of me, and is me. In Saiva Siddhanta we say that Siva is the creator and the creation. But its not as simple as just "being" it. After many lifetimes of subtle samskaras and mental impressions, you cant just "pop" into enlightenment. You must burn away the Anava, Karma, and impressions that are deep in your Consciousness. To find God, you have to do Sadhana, Tapas, Bhakti, and other things. When we in Saiva Siddhanta talk about God Realization, we are NOT talking about becomming one with the universal Consciousness. No, we are talking about merging with PARASIVA, which is altogether beyond Consciousness. Merging with the Universal energy or Consciousness is just Savikalpa Samadhi, but full God Realization or merging with Parasiva is Nirvikalpa Samadhi, beyond form, time, space, and even consciousness.

I am glad you have such a solid dogma to lean back to. Coming back to the OP tho, do you think the dog has any concept of Sadhana, Tapas, Bhakti,and all of that?

I kinda agree from one point, we all have to follow a path, there are not shortcuts and sometimes too rapid a progression along the path can cause more damage than benefit. Saying that, that enlightenment which we can conceptualize in any way is actually just a step on the path, and not the final destination, no matter how many fanciful labels you attach to it.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

I have two dogs one is a Husky wolf mix, Sal, and the other is a German Sheppard, Leo. My next door neighbor's backyard door has a problem locking shut and so opens and closes with the wind. Leo always charges the fence when he hears the door open and shut, as far as he's concern a door can only open or shut by a person. Sal on the other hand doesn't even bark at the door when it opens and shuts with the wind, but Sal does bark when a person opens or shuts the door. Leo can only accept that a door opens or shuts by a cause called a person where as Sal has accepted that a door need not have a cause for it to open or close.

In a sense Sal has a form of Buddhist perspective of reality, there is no need for a cause for reality to be, where as Leo is truly a reductionist! Everything has a cause in Leo's mind set; he cannot accept that nothing can make something happen!

So what prevents a dog from reaching enlightenment? In fact couldn't the simplicity of a dog's perspective be an advantage to reaching Nirvana? Humanity is too complex with its demands for life. Dogs with their emotional intelligence can establish relationships with humans where all their needs can be fulfilled and therefore simplify their lives. They are satisfied and appreciate the simple things in life. Their demands for life are trivial in comparison to human beings.

So perhaps the real path to enlightenment is not reincarnating as a human but as a dog.....

It is our advanced upright spine and brain that allows us to experience enlightenment. Dogs cannot discern or have the ability to stop the breath and enter spirit or know how to enliven the chakras within. Yes their ego is in the right place but there also has to be a desire to get through the shackles of delusion and attachment as well.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I believe most of this depends on how you define enlightenment. If its the enlightenment found in Theravada, or in Shaivism, or in Vaishnavism, or any other form of enlightenment then its going to be very different for each.

Since enlightenment is beyond the mind. Can't it be just that the experiences might be more alike then we may consider to be true due to the fact that it transcends all thought constructs.

Also, is enlightenment the end result of spiritual practice or just the start of true discovery and just the beginning of the wonders of the Cosmos.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

It is our advanced upright spine and brain that allows us to experience enlightenment.

This is just one philosophical construct of Sadhana. Other people have other methods.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

This is just one philosophical construct of Sadhana. Other people have other methods.

Yes, there are other paths but you say people in which all have upright spines and advanced brains.

 

[atanu]

My take on this is that as long as one maintains presumptions about god they are not very far and are perhaps little more than superficial "pond skimmers". When folks abandon their preconceptions about reality they just might find that reality has been staring them in the face for a very long time.

It is heard so often.

But there is never a micro moment in Time when the the mind is not saturated with some or other concept. Even in deep sleep the concept is of darkness.

...

 

[Satsangi]

Can animals achieve Moksha? Even human is an "advanced" animal. I believe NONE can achieve the highest Moksha except by the grace of God or a God realized Guru. Yes, with human efforts, one can be a Jivan Mukta i.e achieve Nirvana.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

Can animals achieve Moksha? Even human is an "advanced" animal. I believe NONE can achieve the highest Moksha except by the grace of God or a God realized Guru. Yes, with human efforts, one can be a Jivan Mukta i.e achieve Nirvana.

Regards,

Interesting point, Satasangi

Isn't it so that only those who have received that grace can truly know it? If not then on what ground is someone alive today able to report confiedently that another has received that grace?

Animals cannot report it.

 

[Satsangi]

Interesting point, Satasangi

Isn't it so that only those who have received that grace can truly know it? If not then on what ground is someone alive today able to report confiedently that another has received that grace?

Animals cannot report it.

Yes Onkara, only the person that has received the grace can truly experience what it is. If one looks at any Scriptures of Hinduism, God and Guru are the giver of Moksha.

Sri Ramana Maharshi did not speak a word and yet made many aware of his spiritual heights. Hence, an animal also does not need a language to claim enlightenment if it really is enlightened. The Ramayana and many other Scriptures have sections in which animals have been given "Sad Gati" ( higher celestial realms) by Lord Rama and Lord Krishna, but that is not the highest Moksha. Yes, that is a HUGE "jump start" towards that goal. In my opinion, it is almost impossible to attain the highest Moksha directly in the same birth as an animal. But, of course, God has the last word on it and can give Moksha to any of the Jivas.

In Srimad Bhagvatam, it says that even the Devas wish for a human birth in the Bharat Varsha to attain Moksha.

Regards,

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

But, of course, God has the last word on it and can give Moksha to any of the Jivas.

This is very true, still God for the most part won't force HER way in to our lives.
It is my belief that Grace is always there. We just don't want HER. We are just to busy with our lives that keep us interested in the world. When we are young Children we love our toys. As young Adults it is sex that we give or attention. Middle age is about enjoyment of wealth and comfort. Old age it is our regrets about how we have lived our lives and what we have done to get the sex and wealth.

Even the spiritual folks most often don't want God more then our playthings. There are many stones in the path to trip up our progress. The pride of the saintly life, siddhi's, great spiritual knowledge are all temptations for the devotee. The grace of the GURU is great but without the grace of our own minds it is not much help. The GURU will not force anything on us that we don't want. How many of us truly want to be lost in Love. Most of us enjoy our lives and our peaceful sadhana that we use to get a grip on life.

 

[Onkara]

...The GURU will not force anything on us that we don't want. How many of us truly want to be lost in Love. Most of us enjoy our lives and our peaceful sadhana that we use to get a grip on life.

Hi Wannabe Yogi
Just curious of your perspective, do you see love as the ultimate goal? I take that love to be love with and from God? Do you see Guru and God as the same?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Hi Wannabe Yogi
Just curious of your perspective, do you see love as the ultimate goal? I take that love to be love with and from God? Do you see Guru and God as the same?

For me it is Love. Thats the goal. To have a heart that is filled with love. I have given up on being enlightened. Personally speaking it seems selfish. I do practices so I can be a Buddha. It seems like a business practice to me. You put in so much time and money to get something you want. Then we expect to get it. So yes love for loves sake is my ideal.

The Guru is God. My Guru has a body and teaches me a specific path. Yet any time anyone or anything teaches us, it is God being the teacher. So that person I call Guru is really just God in the form of a teacher. Today when I was in a rush to take my dogs out to the marsh for a walk. I dropped some chocolate on the floor and told my self I would pick it up later. When I came home and my dogs made a rush for the chocolate (chocolate makes dogs sick) the Guru showed me that I should be more efficient in my cleaning and planing, at that point the Guru was in the form of my dogs.

 

[Onkara]

Thank you Wannabe
Nice to read.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

For me it is Love. Thats the goal. To have a heart that is filled with love. I have given up on being enlightened. Personally speaking it seems selfish. I do practices so I can be a Buddha. It seems like a business practice to me. You put in so much time and money to get something you want. Then we expect to get it. So yes love for loves sake is my ideal.

The Guru is God. My Guru has a body and teaches me a specific path. Yet any time anyone or anything teaches us, it is God being the teacher. So that person I call Guru is really just God in the form of a teacher. Today when I was in a rush to take my dogs out to the marsh for a walk. I dropped some chocolate on the floor and told my self I would pick it up later. When I came home and my dogs made a rush for the chocolate (chocolate makes dogs sick) the Guru showed me that I should be more efficient in my cleaning and planing, at that point the Guru was in the form of my dogs.

Very good! You are identifying that God gives you signs all over the place. God speaks to you in so many ways that people don't even realize. You are also right it is better to love for loves sake. That is what all God knowing teachers teach. Meditation and living for God are ways to get to God, but don't mistake the practice with the goal. That goal is to love and commune with God. Create such a loving pull in your heart that God can't help but come to you. Once you manifest God's presence more and more in your being your heart chakra will open up and love you never thought existed will pour forth from your heart and unto everyone in the world. It's a beautiful experience to have on even minute scales of experience.