Enlightenment

[DreadFish]

If we're all at different places, with different degrees of spiritual development and different dharmas, wouldn't it follow that the optimal yoga would differ for different individuals? Wouldn't it also follow that a highly evolved individual would likely achieve 5th state before an unevolved person following an identical 'system'?

Different strokes for different folks, different socket heads for different bolts

And yeah, I think some people are just at different states of awareness and more prone to realization. Like the story of Hui Neng just hearing a sutra being read and suddenly being launched into realization without any prior practice. Likewise, I have read stories of modern day people who, having had no practice in their lives, suddenly experience ego dropping and realize the absolute.


Also, Bhairava, I love your avatar, I would like to find that in a larger size to save on my computer

 

[Bhairava]

If we're all at different places, with different degrees of spiritual development and different dharmas, wouldn't it follow that the optimal yoga would differ for different individuals? Wouldn't it also follow that a highly evolved individual would likely achieve 5th state before an unevolved person following an identical 'system'?

I agree. When you say 5th state are you referring to turyatita?

 

[Bhairava]

Different strokes for different folks, different socket heads for different bolts

And yeah, I think some people are just at different states of awareness and more prone to realization. Like the story of Hui Neng just hearing a sutra being read and suddenly being launched into realization without any prior practice. Likewise, I have read stories of modern day people who, having had no practice in their lives, suddenly experience ego dropping and realize the absolute.


Also, Bhairava, I love your avatar, I would like to find that in a larger size to save on my computer

The smiley face is called awesome smiley and theres a bunch online. I have a shirt with that smiley face on it. I dont know if theres a bigger one, I have a Mac so it resized it so it would fit as my wallpaper. u jelly?

 

[DreadFish]

The smiley face is called awesome smiley and theres a bunch online. I have a shirt with that smiley face on it. I dont know if theres a bigger one, I have a Mac so it resized it so it would fit as my wallpaper. u jelly?

Just a little jelly on mah toast.

Yeah, I knew what the face was, I though the face was already part of the picture. I ought to go edit one of those up myself.

 

[Bhairava]

Just a little jelly on mah toast.

Yeah, I knew what the face was, I though the face was already part of the picture. I ought to go edit one of those up myself.

Your avatars stylin on me. Looks like Bhairava!

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Is there more than one enlightenment? I'd think you mean which one has the path with less rocks?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Is there more than one enlightenment? I'd think you mean which one has the path with less rocks?

I would say there's only one enlightenment, there's just many ways to get there.

 

[DreadFish]

I would say there's only one enlightenment, there's just many ways to get there.

I bet the wise and deep answer is that there is actually no enlightenment

 

[DreadFish]

Your avatars stylin on me. Looks like Bhairava!

I love me some wrathful deities. This is Fudo-Myo, or, Acala Vidyaraja. The foremost of the Wisdom Kings.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I bet the wise and deep answer is that there is actually no enlightenment

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

[Onkara]

Yep.

Yeah this is the toughest book Ive ever read. While writing the original post I found page 57 trying to make sure what Im writing made sense lol cause like I said Id love clarification and others opinions on such an important and profound matter.

Did you solve your initial query in the end, Bahirava?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Not sure what you mean by this.

In Zen teaching, as well as Tibetan, and probably some other schools of Buddhism, we are already enlightened, so there's no need to try to achieve anything. So, in that case, there is really no enlightenment.

 

[YmirGF]

If we're all at different places, with different degrees of spiritual development and different dharmas, wouldn't it follow that the optimal yoga would differ for different individuals? Wouldn't it also follow that a highly evolved individual would likely achieve 5th state before an unevolved person following an identical 'system'?

In theory, a so-called "highly evolved" individual could realize "enlightenment" by sniffing a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, for all the difference that it makes.

This discussion is reminiscent of a discussion among Snake Oil salesmen touting their own concoctions whilst denigrating the competition. How terribly enlightening... :drool:

 

[DreadFish]

Not sure what you mean by this.

"Enlightenment" refers to the realization of what is, since what is always is what it is, there's nothing findamentally gained or lost when you realize it, you just realize whats always been going on. So there's nothing substantial called "enlightenment" that happens, its just a word to refer to an empty process, I guess you could say.

 

[Bhairava]

Is there more than one enlightenment? I'd think you mean which one has the path with less rocks?

Different paths consider different things enlightenment.

 

[Bhairava]

Did you solve your initial query in the end, Bahirava?

No not at all.

 

[Twilight Hue]

My My... So much hubabaloo over this.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

My My... So much hubabaloo over this.

Yes, over nothing.

 

[ratikala]

dear bhairava ,

Different paths consider different things enlightenment.

fom the buddhist perspective enlightenment is the realisation of the true nature of phenomena .
from more theistic perspective enlightenment is the realisation of god as the true origin of phenomena therefore the true nature of phenomena being symomenous with god .

eitherway one is realising the true nature !
eitherway one is becoming all knowing !

 

[ratikala]

refering back to the initial question ,

I was reading Para-trisika-Vivarana The Secret of Tantric Mysticism which is a book on Kashmir Shaivism. They basically say the enlightenment of Vedantins and Buddhists are lesser stages of manifestation and not enlightenment at all. I follow all 3 of these paths since I follow the Advaita philosophy so I am thoroughly confused. Here is the quote on page 110:

from my understanding , without wishing to enter into debates about buddhist or vedantin veiws , there is ultimately only one full enlightenment , there may be degrees of enlightenment as your text suggests , but I beleive that all practices eventualy lead to full enlightenment as when illusions of one kind are striped away that illusion is replaced by wisdom , that wisdom by its very nature is in time going to trancend remaining levels of ignorance leading to full knowledge , full enlightenment .

in a way following three paths one has to contend with three descriptions or understandings of those levels of ignorance there for one is trying to understand three different methods of removing that same ignorance , this may well be counterproductive !

"The vijnanakalas, however, have only an awareness of 'I' which though of the order of knowledge is devoid of the experience of 'this' i.e. objectivity. Because of their non-awareness of objective reality, they have only an awareness of 'I' and, therefore, they are in the category of aprabuddha i.e. unawakened. The pralayakevalis are non-aware of both 'I' and 'this'. Therefore they are decidedly unawakened."

They explain in the book how those are lower manifestations of existence but I just couldnt except it for some reason and I didnt understand it. Kashmir Shaivism claims its enlightenment is at the level of Isvara (god) which is identity in diversity. Using Vedantic terms it would seem like vijnanakalas where at the stage of manifest Brahman because of not being aware of objectivity which is superior to Isvara which is identity in difference. Pralayakevalis seem like thats the stage of unmanifest Brahman since they are not aware of 'I' or 'this' so wouldnt that be the highest reality?

If you use Kashmir Shaivism terms it seems like vijnanakalas are beyond the level of Isvara at the level of Shiva-Shakti since only 'I' is percieved and no difference. Pralayakevalis since there is no 'I' or 'this' they seem to be in the state of Parama Siva beyond all categories like the unmanifest Brahman.

this is the problem we face , having access to so many philosophical systems , too much terminology !
if one veiws each terminology as merely a pointer one is better equiped to see that it is our own perception that we need to be engaging .
but to follow different pionters from different traditions at the same time may purely result in complete confusion !

This is confusing the Hell out of me; would love to hear your perspective.

not surprised !
it is allways simple when you have reached a destination to look back and see clearly that there were many paths to that destination , but whilst on that path one needs to stick with it .there is no use in going off at a tangent , unless of course one wants to delay ones progress .