Enlightenment

[Ant0nio]

I haven't yet tried zazen.

No, I meant according to you, what is the way to realize one is enlightened already? I have heard an enlightened master say this also, that we are already the buddha, that we are God, that we are already enlightened even!

But according to you, how does one realize that he/she is already enlightened?

 

[Willamena]

No, I meant according to you, what is the way to realize one is enlightened already? I have heard an enlightened master say this also, that we are already the buddha, that we are God, that we are already enlightened even!

But according to you, how does one realize that he/she is already enlightened?

I have no reason to dispute "masters" whose words I've read, who declare that this state can be won in any number of ways. (I "won" it on a friend's blog--go "me".) But according to Dogen Kigen, zazen never fails. I'd like to try it, someday (knowing full well that others would point out that someday is this day).

 

[Rolling_Stone]

You see the glass as half empty I take it? Just kidding

But love never loses it's meaning, neither does spirit or enlightenment. We just see it differently depending on what level of experience we are at.

That's like saying time goes too fast when you are having fun. Or time goes to slow when you are bored. Time always goes at the same speed, but our perception of it may change based on our condition.

Love will always be love, but how we percieve it is based on our level.

What do these things mean to you?

• Love is impassioned unity-communion: the spiritual equivalent of material gravity. It is sentimental, but is not sentiment.
• Spirit is existential, conscious, and minded causation: the soul of creation in contradistinction to matter, the shadowy physical body which takes form in the wake of spirit's movement.
• Enlightenment is to be born of the spirit.

 

[Alceste]

No, I meant according to you, what is the way to realize one is enlightened already? I have heard an enlightened master say this also, that we are already the buddha, that we are God, that we are already enlightened even!

But according to you, how does one realize that he/she is already enlightened?

I don't agree that everyone is enlightened. Most people are heavily burdened with petty concerns, especially in the West. It might be more accurate to say everyone has the potential to be liberated from the compulsive, endless chatter of the mind and see the world from the perspective of the bright, clear spark of awareness that has always been at their center. It is there in everyone, but integrating it into conscious awareness takes work - those who don't do the work can't really be called "enlightened".

Generally, what seems to be required is silent contemplation, preferably of or in nature. A little material self-deprivation and travel (alone) can't hurt either. That's how I got mine, anyway. :angel2:

 

[Smoke]

I'm just curious. What is your opinion on enlightenment?

I'm for it.

Full enlightenment (IMHO) includes being One with God and realizing that you and God are one, and that you are one with everything and everyone else. This state (IMHO) is the state of an enlightened master.

Also, being fully enlightened means being completely full, of automatic unconditional love.

I can agree with that as far as it goes, except for the god part. In Buddhism, enlightenment also means liberation from cravings and delusion, and I think that's an important aspect of it, too.

I guess. I mean, it's not as if I were speaking from experience.

I've always found it kind of interesting that enlighten and illumine mean basically the same thing, but in Christianity -- or Orthodox Christianity, anyway -- Illumination takes place at baptism, at the beginning of your beginning to be saved, and in Buddhism, enlightenment is the culmination of your liberation. Partly (but only partly) because of my Orthodox background, I think of enlightenment as a process as much as an event, and I imagine that even if one were to attain enlightenment, there would be a further deepening of that enlightenment. That is, I don't think anybody can ever sit back and say, "Well. I'm done."

 

[Destry]

What i believe Enlightenment to be is being completely at peace with oneself and the things one does. Because there is no greater knowlege than the knowlege of ones true desires and feelings.

 

[Ant0nio]

I'm for it.

I can agree with that as far as it goes, except for the god part. In Buddhism, enlightenment also means liberation from cravings and delusion, and I think that's an important aspect of it, too.

I guess. I mean, it's not as if I were speaking from experience.

I've always found it kind of interesting that enlighten and illumine mean basically the same thing, but in Christianity -- or Orthodox Christianity, anyway -- Illumination takes place at baptism, at the beginning of your beginning to be saved, and in Buddhism, enlightenment is the culmination of your liberation. Partly (but only partly) because of my Orthodox background, I think of enlightenment as a process as much as an event, and I imagine that even if one were to attain enlightenment, there would be a further deepening of that enlightenment. That is, I don't think anybody can ever sit back and say, "Well. I'm done."

Even a living master I know of today has said that there are always deeper levels of enlightenment, and she is already a master! If there were a limit, I think it would get boring eventually.

And I think you are also right about enlightenment being a process as much as an event. A master I know of now, provides initiation, and the initiation is referred sometimes as being an "immediate enlightenment", because you get a taste of the divine immediately at the time of initiation, but you must continue to practice the meditation to deepen your enlightenment, and progress further towards the goal of masterhood. Both the Buddhist example and the Christian example of enlightenment hold relevancy (IMHO).

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Hi, TurkeyOnRye - I agree to some extent. The first experience of completeness and perfection does permanently alter perception, but the experience itself is not permanent. The return to "ordinary" perception is inevitable, and if psychological disaster (ie. depression, schizophrenia, narcissism, etc) is to be avoided an "enlightened" person must learn through hard work and diligent practice how to integrate the insights gained from their peak experience with the unavoidable business of daily life.

This is my understanding of the matter, too.

In Buddhism, you would be describing kensho, or a brief glimpse into our true nature...only a taste of enlightenment. Almost no one is truly enlightened and of those people who are, most went through deep, horrible pain to get there. By definition, enlightenment is a permanent discontinuation of the normal cycle of death and rebirth; it is the cessation of pain through the elimination of attachment and identification with the conditioned mind.

Ultimately, I am using the eastern definition of enlightenment, which is not as flexible and easily tossed around as it is here in the west. To truly understand enlightenment, one must experience it first, otherwise it goes over people's heads. You are right for most part. Most people will never attain enlightenment and must simply integrate their experience into their daily lives as much as possible. This seems to be more a question of semantics. Though if you believe that no one can truly be enlightened (by the definition I have given), I would beg to differ.