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Environmental Extremism in California

Super Universe

Defender of God
I consider myself to be an environmentalist but organizations like the Pacific Institute are manipulating the information and succeeding in convincing people that their extreme views are correct. The extremists think that humans should have a very small to no impact on the environment at all. The think that rivers are supposed to over flow their banks. The Pacific Institute says that dams are bad for the environment and they claim that California can achieve it's current and future water needs primarily by conservation and recycling. This is not true.

Some cities get their water from rivers that are always flowing. Three major rivers that run through California; the Sacramento, the American, and the San Joaquin rivers never cease flowing. Even in drought years those rivers provide water to major cities. Those cities are under water restrictions, even now, with one of the wettest years on record, city water managers are voting to continue water use restrictions. This makes no sense. If they don't use the water it just flows into the ocean. "Saving water" is how it truly gets wasted.

If a person uses water inside their home it goes down the drain and ends up at a sewage treatment plant which treats the water and sends it back into the river. So, using water inside your home is using it, not wasting it.

If a person uses water outside their home it goes into the ground and seeps back into the river. Once again, using that water is not wasting it.

There are some communities that get their water directly from water storage, either large water storage tanks or reservoirs. Those communities should conserve water in drought years. The problem is when people think that everything should always be fair so the big cities should save water too even though their water supply comes from rivers that are always flowing.

The Pacific Institute also says that dams are responsible for increased CO2 emissions. Leaves from trees fall into reservoirs created by dams and the leaves decompose and release CO2.
Well leaves decompose on land too and wildfires release massive amounts of CO2. Reservoirs don't catch fire and the water in reservoirs can be used to fight wildland fires.

The Pacific Institute thinks that rivers are supposed to over flow their banks. They think that natural is better than human inferference. If the rivers in California over flow their banks millions of homes will be damaged. With a dam, there is actually more water flowing in the rivers in summer than there would be naturally. Without a dam on a major river during drought years the migratory fish populations would be hard hit.

In California every dam that blocks the salmon and rainbow trout from reaching their normal spawning areas has a fishery.

The Pacific Institute also claims that all the best dam locations in California have already been taken. This might be true but that doesn't mean that there are no more good sites available for a series of smaller dams.

The US Army Corp of Engineers estimates that the dams in California provide 200 year flood protection. The flood of 1862 flooded the entire California central valley. That was 155 years ago so, hopefully there is time. California needs more dams, small dams, built high up in the mountains to provide more flood control and water storage.

Dams produce clean electricity. They help control flooding. The reservoirs provide marine habitat and human recreation. They store water and provide it in summer.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems you forgot your citations. Please provide citations so we can verify the claims you are making about various organizations.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
You want me to refer you to the Pacific Institute's website? The less hits their website gets, the better. I believe they already exist entirely on donations, they need to find real jobs and stop misleading the public.

I want to discuss this with people who already know something about the issue.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
You want me to refer you to the Pacific Institute's website? The less hits their website gets, the better. I believe they already exist entirely on donations, they need to find real jobs and stop misleading the public.

I want to discuss this with people who already know something about the issue.
All of which should be easy to do... if you provide evidence to your claims.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Rivers are supposed to overflow their banks have you studied geography? Heard of the flood plain well, the clues in the name.

Rivers are supposed to over flow their banks? No, they're not. Who told you that?

That's like saying humans are not supposed to wear clothes, or brush their teeth, or use toilet paper because "it's not natural".

Have I studied geology? Yeah, been there, did that, didn't get a t-shirt.

Ever hear of something called a levee? They've been built for hundreds of years.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
You want me to refer you to the Pacific Institute's website? The less hits their website gets, the better. I believe they already exist entirely on donations, they need to find real jobs and stop misleading the public.

I want to discuss this with people who already know something about the issue.
..

This isn't how that works. You make a claim, you give an example, else you could just be pulling stuff directly from your own ***.

Rivers are supposed to over flow their banks? No, they're not. Who told you that?

That's like saying humans are not supposed to wear clothes, or brush their teeth, or use toilet paper because "it's not natural".

Have I studied geology? Yeah, been there, did that, didn't get a t-shirt.

Ever hear of something called a levee? They've been built for thousands of years.
...

You never studied any sort of ancient human history, did you? The Egyptians knew the Nile had to flood in order for their agriculture to work at all. Rivers flood. It is natural. It's not even always bad, because again, the flooding of the Nile was integral to ancient Egyptian civilization. That is only one example.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
If you don't know anything about the issue I'm not going to provide you with a free college course.

So, basically, you're just an extremist who doesn't know enough about the issue to debate it.

You're one of them tree huggers who lives in a house built with wood and has cabinets and furniture built with wood but thinks that cutting down trees is bad.
Well, with such a mature response, what can I say? You got me there. :rolleyes:

What a joke.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
PSA: When you cite statistics and specific claims, if you want anyone to take you with any ounce of seriousness, cite your damn sources. It isn't hard and it adds credibility to your claim. Otherwise, we can only assume you are fabricating or lazy, both of which are unacceptable to serious discussions.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
You want me to refer you to the Pacific Institute's website?

What I want is for you to cite your sources. I presume you wrote basic research papers during your education. I'm asking you to do what any proper research paper would do and cite sources when you are making claims about what someone else said so we can fact-check.


The less hits their website gets, the better.

Well, now that you mention it...

Quick, everyone click this link!

Pacific Institute
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
..

This isn't how that works. You make a claim, you give an example, else you could just be pulling stuff directly from your own ***.


...

You never studied any sort of ancient human history, did you? The Egyptians knew the Nile had to flood in order for their agriculture to work at all. Rivers flood. It is natural. It's not even always bad, because again, the flooding of the Nile was integral to ancient Egyptian civilization. That is only one example.

I make a claim and need to give an example? I did, I made several claims and gave examples. It's not my fault you didn't get an education. I you had you would know whether people were pulling stuff directly from their own ***.

I never studied ancient human history? I only studied ancient cultures for 5 years. How long did you study ancient human history?

The Egyptians knew the Nile River would flood to provide sediment for their agriculture? They did. When was the last time Cairo flooded?

The flooding of the Nile was integral to ancient Egyptian civilization? It was and river flooding still happens in much of the world. What does that have to do with this topic which is California Extreme Environmentalism?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
PSA: When you cite statistics and specific claims, if you want anyone to take you with any ounce of seriousness, cite your damn sources. It isn't hard and it adds credibility to your claim. Otherwise, we can only assume you are fabricating or lazy, both of which are unacceptable to serious discussions.

You don't know anything about the issue so you want me to provide you with years of research that will take you days to go through?

If you don't know anything about the issue then why post here?

You're uneducated and I'm supposedly the lazy one?
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
You don't know anything about the issue so you want me to provide you with years of research that will take you days to go through?

If you don't know anything about the issue then why post here?

You're uneducated and I'm supposedly the lazy one?
I hope you understand you derailed your own topic by being stubborn with a very basic, academic request.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So these are the statements that need a citation. I have been looking for this and am not finding it. Where were these statements made? Citations, citations, citations! Some of us would like to look this up to examine the context of these alleged statements.

The Pacific Institute says that dams are bad for the environment and they claim that California can achieve it's current and future water needs primarily by conservation and recycling.

The Pacific Institute also says that dams are responsible for increased CO2 emissions. Leaves from trees fall into reservoirs created by dams and the leaves decompose and release CO2.

The Pacific Institute thinks that rivers are supposed to over flow their banks. They think that natural is better than human inferference.

The Pacific Institute also claims that all the best dam locations in California have already been taken.

And this one needs a reference too:


The US Army Corp of Engineers estimates that the dams in California provide 200 year flood protection.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
I hope you understand you derailed your own topic by being stubborn with a very basic, academic request.
No, you are attempting to derail it because you love the trees but you don't like it when other people have the right to use trees just as much as you do.

Oh, boo hoo.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
No, you are attempting to derail it because you love the trees but you don't like it when other people have the right to use trees just as much as you do.

Oh, boo hoo.
Okay, I tried. Enjoy your thread.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The Pacific Institute looks like they churn out some pretty good stuff. I'm finding lots of awesome things and not any of the claims the OP is making about them so far. Here is a really cool analysis of untapped water resources:

"Key findings and solutions from the new study include:

  • Agriculture uses about 80 percent of California’s developed water supply. Agricultural water users can develop more sustainable water use by expanding adoption of key modern irrigation technologies and practices, such as drip irrigation and precise irrigation scheduling. Some farmers are already employing these practices, which, extended, can reduce agricultural water use by 17 to 22 percent – or 5.6 to 6.6 million acre-feet of water annually. These savings are the equivalent to the surface water that Central Valley farms are lacking this year due to the drought.
  • Urban areas use about 20 percent of the state’s developed water supply, much of which is delivered from reservoirs hundreds of miles away at great ecological and energy cost. Improved efficiency, stormwater capture, and greater water reuse can together save a total of 5.2 to 7.1 million acre-feet of water per year, enough water to supply all of urban Southern California and have water remaining to help restore ecosystems and recharge aquifers. These approaches also cut energy use, boost local water reliability, and improve water quality in coastal regions.
  • In total, these 21st century water supply solutions can offer up to 14 million acre-feet in new supplies and demand reductions per year, more water than is used in all of California’s cities in a year. These savings would provide enough water to serve 20 cities the size of Los Angeles, every year."
*full article here*
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
So these are the statements that need a citation. I have been looking for this and am not finding it. Where were these statements made? Citations, citations, citations! Some of us would like to look this up to examine the context of these alleged statements.









And this one needs a reference too:

And if I don't, will you go away?

I'm not going to teach 5 years of science to high school physical education teachers.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
And if I don't, will you go away?

Nope. I'm going to keep pouring over the Pacific Institute website trying to find evidence of your claims. And I'll keep posting other interesting things I come across with actual references.


I'm not going to teach 5 years of science to high school physical education teachers.

I'm sorry, what? I'm pretty sure nobody here is a high school PE teacher, and nobody has asked you to teach us anything. You've been asked to cite your sources.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Rivers are supposed to over flow their banks? No, they're not. Who told you that?

That's like saying humans are not supposed to wear clothes, or brush their teeth, or use toilet paper because "it's not natural".

Have I studied geology? Yeah, been there, did that, didn't get a t-shirt.

Ever hear of something called a levee? They've been built for hundreds of years.
My geography teacher told me at school.
Here is Wiki's take on it...
Floodplain - Wikipedia
"A floodplain or flood plain is an area of land adjacent to a stream or river that stretches from the banks of its channel to the base of the enclosing valley walls and experiences flooding during periods of high discharge.[1] It includes the floodway, which consists of the stream channel and adjacent areas that actively carry flood flows downstream, and the flood fringe, which are areas inundated by the flood, but which do not experience a strong current. In other words, a floodplain is an area near a river or a stream which floods when the water level reaches flood stage."

Levees are man made to try to stop the river going onto its floodplain and usually work ok but they will eventually be breached.

So yes, rivers DO spread beyond their banks. It is man who tries to control it by building levees. But if man didn't build on the floodplain we would not have the problem in the first place
 
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