Environmentalist Say Ethanol Is Bad For The Environment.

[esmith]

So, it appears that the idea of ethanol that was touted years ago was wrong. Seems that the case is now that ethanol is bad for the environment.
The Case Against More Ethanol: It's Simply Bad for Environment
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a6244/e15-gasoline-damage-engine/
https://www.publicnewsservice.org/2...ethanol-causing-environmental-damage/a63554-2
http://rethinkethanol.com/stories/
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/ethanol-environment-damage/

At least we here have access to non-ethanol gasoline. Yeah, it is higher priced than regular gas, but I can purchase it anywhere from 87-92 octane and I run it in all of my small engines.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Who'd have thought complex supply chains would have unforeseen properties.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

So, it appears that the idea of ethanol that was touted years ago was wrong. Seems that the case is now that ethanol is bad for the environment.
The Case Against More Ethanol: It's Simply Bad for Environment
E15 and Engines - Can Ethanol Damage my Engine
EPA Report Finds Ethanol Causing Environmental Damage
http://rethinkethanol.com/stories/
Ethanol Damages The Environment, EPA Says — Isn't It Time To Kill The Program?

At least we here have access to non-ethanol gasoline. Yeah, it is higher priced than regular gas, but I can purchase it anywhere from 87-92 octane and I run it in all of my small engines.

Environmentalists have long said that such biofuels were a problem...the negative effects of devoting agricultural lands to the production of cane sugar (in the tropics) or corn or beet sugar (in temperate climes) are substantial...

In Brazil, the nation was able to supply almost all of its transportation energy needs from cane sugar...but the environmental degradation needed to convert that crop into fuel was tremendous...but the nation was energy independent for a long time (not sure of the situation now).

In the US, ethanol production was seen as a way of supporting the agricultural industry, especially the big corporations, such as ADM. But the amount of land, water and energy to produce the fuel has had to be subsidized heavily by tax policies.

 

[Valjean]

Old news.
Environmentalists pointed out the environmental problems years ago, and engines and seals have been adapted to the mix.

 

[Audie]

Whether there is a net energy gain is questionable.

 

[Valjean]

Whether there is a net energy gain is questionable.

I think the mix was instituted so vehicles could more easily pass current emissions tests. Externalities and the lower energy of ethanol weren't taken into consideration.

Ethanol does reduce measured exhaust pollutants while the vehicle is sitting in the inspection bay, but ethanol produces less energy than gasoline, so actual mileage per gallon/liter is less.
I don't think anyone considered that, say, a 10% reduction in mileage would counteract a 10% reduction in pollutants.

 

[Audie]

I think the mix was instituted so vehicles could more easily pass current emissions tests. Externalities and the lower energy of ethanol weren't taken into consideration.

Ethanol does reduce measured exhaust pollutants while the vehicle is sitting in the inspection bay, but ethanol produces less energy than gasoline, so actual mileage per gallon/liter is less.
I don't think anyone considered that, say, a 10% reduction in mileage would counteract a 10% reduction in pollutants.

It was talked about as part of "energy independance".
GWB; switchgrass. That stuff.
It is a subsidy for farmers.
Net energy gain or loss did not show up
in discussion.
I the variable cost of production and the source of
the expense makes net energy hard to track.
To get it right, everything from mining and smelting iron,
through irtigation pumps etc and blah has to be figured
in.

Mevhanized farming-as a rule please soneone correct me-
requires a multiple of energy input to output.

Ethanol is a boobdoggle, a phony solution.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is a complex problem. Ethanol from corn grain only is almost certainly a net loss of energy, but if we develop a way of producing ethanol economically from cellulose it may have been a net positive since we were given a head start on re-engineering vehicles so that they could use ethanol.

And any change in energy is going to be a complex problem, whether it is so called "clean coal", nuclear, or even cancer causing windmills

 

[Audie]

It is a complex problem. Ethanol from corn grain only is almost certainly a net loss of energy, but if we develop a way of producing ethanol economically from cellulose it may have been a net positive since we were given a head start on re-engineering vehicles so that they could use ethanol.

And any change in energy is going to be a complex problem, whether it is so called "clean coal", nuclear, or even cancer causing windmills

There's billions to be had for anyone who can figure
outv a zipper for cellulose.

Think of it this way. Cellulose is "designed" to not have
a simple way to deconstruct it.

Some fungus would have figured it out back in the
used to be, and, where would we be now?

 

[Subduction Zone]

There's billions to be had for anyone who can figure
outv a zipper for cellulose.

Think of it this way. Cellulose is "designed" to not have
a simple way to deconstruct it.

Some fungus would have figured it out back in the
used to be, and, where would we be now?

Good point, there may never be a way to do so economically. But giving up ahead of time never solves a problem. There may be other sources of ethanol. And if not I am sure that we can find a use for the ethanol that we make now. I am going to do my part

 

[Valjean]

I've heard electricity might work...

 

[esmith]

I've heard electricity might work...

Only for you urban dwellers

 

[Subduction Zone]

Only for you urban dwellers

Even suburban dwellers should have no problem using an electric car for every day use. You hat sort of range do you need in a vehicle on a daily basis?

 

[esmith]

Even suburban dwellers should have no problem using an electric car for every day use. You hat sort of range do you need in a vehicle on a daily basis?

I was implying that a electric vehicle is viable if one is only using a car for daily transportation.
If one is using a vehicle other than a car, electric power is not workable in all situations.
In other words until advances in batteries (or their replacement) progress well beyond the present the need for a fossil fueled engine is mandatory.

Truck makers rev up for rollout of electric big rigs

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, it appears that the idea of ethanol that was touted years ago was wrong. Seems that the case is now that ethanol is bad for the environment.
The Case Against More Ethanol: It's Simply Bad for Environment
E15 and Engines - Can Ethanol Damage my Engine
EPA Report Finds Ethanol Causing Environmental Damage
http://rethinkethanol.com/stories/
Ethanol Damages The Environment, EPA Says — Isn't It Time To Kill The Program?

At least we here have access to non-ethanol gasoline. Yeah, it is higher priced than regular gas, but I can purchase it anywhere from 87-92 octane and I run it in all of my small engines.

Ethanol wasn't ever about the environment; it was about selling more corn.

 

[esmith]

Ethanol wasn't ever about the environment; it was about selling more corn.

Only because MTBE was thought to make water unsafe to drink(thanks again CA) which has not been proven and many states passed laws passed laws limiting or banning the use of MTBE in gasoline. Hence the switch to ethanol.
Why is there ethanol in gasoline?
MTBE

 

[Subduction Zone]

I was implying that a electric vehicle is viable if one is only using a car for daily transportation.
If one is using a vehicle other than a car, electric power is not workable in all situations.
In other words until advances in batteries (or their replacement) progress well beyond the present the need for a fossil fueled engine is mandatory.

Truck makers rev up for rollout of electric big rigs

Okay, that's reasonable. I don't think that they have an electric vehicle that can handle a twelve bottom plow yet.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Well there's always nuclear. Its as green an energy source as you're going to get.

I was implying that a electric vehicle is viable if one is only using a car for daily transportation.
If one is using a vehicle other than a car, electric power is not workable in all situations.
In other words until advances in batteries (or their replacement) progress well beyond the present the need for a fossil fueled engine is mandatory.

Truck makers rev up for rollout of electric big rigs

Oh boy oh joy, something else for environmentalists to complain about.

Electric cars 'pose green threat'

Ozone: A Powerful Lung Irritant

 

[Woberts]

Well there's always nuclear. Its as green an energy source as you're going to get.

No, it's not. Nuclear waste being stored in an unsafe way is the norm in America.

 

[sayak83]

Well there's always nuclear. Its as green an energy source as you're going to get.
Oh boy oh joy, something else for environmentalists to complain about.

Electric cars 'pose green threat'

Ozone: A Powerful Lung Irritant

Actually ozone is a serious pollutant and health hazard. Its only in the high atmosphere that its shielding effect makes it useful.Otherwise its highly toxic.