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Epicurus' riddle

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
According to the Bible, rebellion against god would be wrongdoing.
Is it? Where does it say that?
The kind of rebellion you refer to, however (your point is well taken), would require the kind of morality that could only come from eating of the fruit.
See, that's the point. The nature of humanity is such that, in order to live into our potential, there must come a time of separation from God. It's a natural part of our maturation process. God didn't always intend for us to be as helpless babies. God intended for us to be in God's image. Eating the fruit wasn't "an evil act," which is usually how people define "sin." Eating the fruit gave us a developmentally-healthy differentiation from God so that we could become completely self-aware and self-actualized. That's the only way we can truly build a love relationship with God. Any other kind of relationship is merely codependency. "Sin" is merely "separation" from God. It's not necessarily "an evil thing."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I request substantiation for this claim.
Regardless, if the PoE can establish that God is not good in some objective and absolute sense then that is already sufficient as far as the PoE is concerned. Which is exactly what you have to concede if you argument that evil is subjective ( as in a personal preference ).
What, then is the definition of "evil?" Who decides?
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Jesus rebelled, yet was not violent.

Tell that to the moneylenders at the temple.

Clipboard02.jpg
 

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
In the absence of God, people decide democratically what evil is. Usually people agree that actions that would suck for them would suck for others. Fairness and empathy play heavily, here.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
So how can you claim it is a positive reason when you don't anything about the reason?
With that logic, there is no Theory of Relativity.

You already said there is objective evil. How can I be evil under any conditions given that there is no evil?
If there is no objective evil, then how can any refer to an evil person and it in anyway reflect reality?
And a subjectively bag thing is not a bad thing.
These three are related, so I put them together.
There is one thing that is evil, but its evilness is relative. That is going against G-d's will.
The reason this is so, is because G-d is intrinsically the greatest possible existence so that anything that is derived from G-d is inherently good. The existence of the perception of evil than is related to the perception of the lack of G-d. Just like the perception of G-d's non-existence is an illusion, so too is evil because they are the same thing: evil means lacking godliness.
With the fulfillment of G-d's will, one becomes a medium through which the Divine will is expressed any by extension, becomes connected to G-d. This is called, "doing good". By transgressing G-d's will, one becomes disconnected, or does not connect to the Divine will, this is evil. But it is only a perception of evil, because there is no existence without G-d. G-d can only express His existence, therefore He can only do good. Only a person who can have intent to contradict G-d's existence, can do evil
.
Its actually less pronounced than that, because its the intent behind the act, not the act itself, that defines the person. The act itself is an extension of G-d's will. Only, we who can't see into a person's intent have to judge based on actions. So we need to link the act with the intent. G-d doesn't have that limit. But this is another discussion altogether.

The point being, that's its possible to be evil, without doing evil.

Sure. I was just stating, feeling like one has resolved an issue for themselves is of little value to anyone who still has an issue.
I agree with that.

It was meant to say, that if I stated 2+2=5, and you were like, I don't see how that makes sense, and I was like, I also don't see how that makes sense but this page I have here says, "I will one day make sense," so it is, in fact, safe to say, that it does make sense.
That is true. So that means that the answer to Epicurus exists, the only question is if the answer is true or not.

Your analogy would be a great one if surgeons purported themselves to be capable of doing anything.
That would always be a great one, but it wouldn't effect my analogy much as I was only trying to make an analogy to an act that when viewed on its own appears evil, while when viewed in context is clearly good.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Wow! Not one person out of billions over the last 2.3 millennia!

That is easily one of the most sweeping, stupid and arrogant statements I've seen in some time.

Start here (or, if you prefer, here) and feel free come back when you can demonstrate that you take the subject seriously.​

I read over much in the links you shared, and the discussion/debate/argument always plays out with one theme always playing in the background that is perhaps one of the "most sweeping" and "arrogant" assumptions of all time. That being that things that are detrimental to humans, specifically, are considered "evil" as an objective "fact". That seems to me an extremely narrow and assuming viewpoint. Considering a broader view of existence, the question of whether even any of the people cited in those sources are actually "taking the subject seriously" could easily be argued.

As examples of seeing from this broader view:
1. See the world from the viewpoint of a fly. A dead human body becomes a wonderful place to eat, reproduce and bear young.
2. An act of the world being flooded would mean a boon to marine life of all sorts - humans need not apply.
3. If no humans existed then the common cow could actually exist in the wild. How weird would that be, eh? For cows to actually have some freedom? And by that I mean any at all. To get to choose which of their species they do and do not wish to mate with, take care of their own young, etc. Granted, there are maybe a (relatively) few cows that get to experience these things - but honestly think about it - when was the last time you ever saw a completely WILD cow? Maybe if you've traveled to India. Humans going the way of the dodo would mean a world of positive difference for that species of animal.

That occurrences resulting in the detriment/pain/death of humans be considered inherently "evil" isn't even necessarily a logical starting point.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
In the absence of God, people decide democratically what evil is. Usually people agree that actions that would suck for them would suck for others. Fairness and empathy play heavily, here.
See, that's not how theology works. Therefore, that sort of "decision" that ends up as some kind of "definition" isn't a theological argument.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I request substantiation for this claim.

You're asking for some sort of substantiation that the way people perceive things, evil included, is subjective?

How about: because we're human, and we perceive things subjectively?

I request substantiation for this claim. Regardless, if the PoE can establish that God is not good in some objective and absolute sense then that is already sufficient as far as the PoE is concerned.

Yes, if it could do that, it might be worth something.

Which is exactly what you have to concede if you argument that evil is subjective ( as in a personal preference ).

No idea what you're saying here.
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
In other words, it's subjective. Yet it's being treated as some kind of objective absolute.

That's merely because 'omnibenevolence' is also being treated as an objective absolute.
The PoE doesn't exist if God's goodness is a matter of perspective.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
That's merely because 'omnibenevolence' is also being treated as an objective absolute.
The PoE doesn't exist if God's goodness is a matter of perspective.

God's goodness (or lack thereof) isn't a matter of perspective.

Our perspective of it is a matter of perspective.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
1. Being omni-benevolent God wants us to be happy.

2. Being omniscient, God knows humans are never happy unless they have something to whine about.

3. Being omnipotent, God created pain.


What's there not to understand? :shrug:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
That's merely because 'omnibenevolence' is also being treated as an objective absolute.
The PoE doesn't exist if God's goodness is a matter of perspective.
It's all a matter of perspective. That's the problem: people keep treating theology as if it's some absolute, provable and measurable something.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You're asking for some sort of substantiation that the way people perceive things, evil included, is subjective?

How about: because we're human, and we perceive things subjectively?

No. I am asking for substantiation on how we treat one particular perception: evil. You said that we more commonly treat it as a subjective perception.


Yes, if it could do that, it might be worth something.

No idea what you're saying here.

You can't say that evil is merely subjective ( rather than objective and absolute ) without saying the same about good.
You must concede by the same token that good is subjective, which entails that 'omnibenevolence' is merely a matter of opinion.
 
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