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Equality is a Lie

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Equality is a lie. Is it not?
We are not born equal. I was not born royal. My parents/grandparents worked in the fields
Our lives are not equal. My life is not equal to that of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We are not treated as equals. I am not treated as Beyoncé is treated. IOW as a celebrity get treated.

Is equality just a pie in the sky idealism we are supposed to pretend exists?
Is it roleplay? A way to feel better about the truth of inequality?

The end goal of equality, is it realistic? If not, what is the point?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Are there people actually saying that right now, everyone is born equal?

The last few questions you ask (about equality being a goal) brings to mind the saying, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good". IOW, we shouldn't stop trying to make things more equal because absolute universal equality isn't realistic.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Equality is a lie. Is it not?
We are not born equal. I was not born royal. My parents/grandparents worked in the fields
Our lives are not equal. My life is not equal to that of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We are not treated as equals. I am not treated as Beyoncé is treated. IOW as a celebrity get treated.

Is equality just a pie in the sky idealism we are supposed to pretend exists?
Is it roleplay? A way to feel better about the truth of inequality?

The end goal of equality, is it realistic? If not, what is the point?

I feel equality means we are all human and should be treated as such regardless who we are, what we have done, how we think, and even what we wear. It's less about status, job, ethnicity, even culture and religion and more of a general sense no one is special in regards to life. Every living being and entity on earth are part of the same circle. That's what I feel equality means in the gran scheme of things.

But, of course, we're not equal when it comes to our uniqueness. Equal as in we all have one life and we are all human on this great ball of dirt. Not equal because we have our unique life and views that distinguish us from our peers (each person has an individual fingerprint even twins).
 
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AlexanderG

Active Member
Equality is a lie. Is it not?
We are not born equal. I was not born royal. My parents/grandparents worked in the fields
Our lives are not equal. My life is not equal to that of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We are not treated as equals. I am not treated as Beyoncé is treated. IOW as a celebrity get treated.

Is equality just a pie in the sky idealism we are supposed to pretend exists?
Is it roleplay? A way to feel better about the truth of inequality?

The end goal of equality, is it realistic? If not, what is the point?

This is a common strawman propped up by certain people.

1. No one is saying everyone is equal. We are clearly not all equal.
2. The push for "equality" means crafting policy to provide "equal opportunity" to everyone to succeed. Even this goal is an impossible ideal, but we can get closer and closer with pragmatic societal changes. A genius child should not fail to achieve their genius by dying of an ear infection because their parents couldn't afford antibiotics, for example. Note that this doesn't mean everyone should be a genius of equal intelligence, it just says everyone should have the opportunity to maximize their innate personal talents, whatever those may be.
3. Equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcomes. However, outcomes are currently the best metric to measure whether opportunities are becoming more equal. Therefore there is a secondary focus on outcomes.
4. Equal opportunities also entails equal treatment under the law, which is really a struggle in the US as countless examples show.

Equality means "as equal an opportunity for everyone to succeed as possible." It just seems like there are a lot of people who would rather see minorities stay "in their place," even if it means fewer great musicians, cancer drug inventors, writers, etc. And so we see this obfuscation. The BLM movement means "Black lives matter, too" and not "only black lives matter" as it has been recast by right wing types. We see the same attempted rebranding for "equality," and I'd argue it's for the same motivations.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I think equality is quite a loaded word.

You can speak of 'legal' equality, which has nothing to do with your resources or the equitable distribution thereof, but is merely about ensuring we all live in a society governed by the 'rule of law' that does not unfairly discriminate on the basis of immutable characteristics like gender, race, sexuality or indeed religion, when it comes to the enjoyment - and protection - of fundamental rights/liberties and the criminal justice system etc. etc.

This may be a 'legal fiction', inasmuch as the idea underpinning it rests on a philosophical (arguably originally religious and Christian) idea of human nature as a blank slate; without taking into consideration widely differing natural aptitudes from individual to individual. And, moreover, vast disparities in access to resources in a free-market economy (with a private sector where the ultra-wealthy can use tax loopholes, lobby governments and employ rent-seeking behaviour to create a situation where the top 1% makes its income primarily from capital, not labour, whilst the labouring masses don't benefit fairly from the wealth they produce).

Nothing about the latter, which has to do with rampant social inequality, negates the fact that legal equality is foundational to the functioning of many of our societies today.

If you're looking at it from the social perspective, then yes: touting 'equality under the law' or 'equal human rights' can seem rather hollow against a reality where the “unearned income” of the most well-off people in can more than double over a decade while millions endure austerity and stagnant wage growth. It's somewhat reminiscent of that passage from the Epistle of James in the New Testament, where it says:


"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:14-17).​


Just as faith without works might be dead theologically, 'legal' equality in the absence of greater social levelling may well seem like a 'husk' or collective illusion which we all inhabit.

I could never ever hope to one day run as fast as Usain Bolt or solve complex mathematical equations like Albert Einstein and I'll probably never afford the luxurious lifestyle of Jeff Bezos. So, in that respect, its a truism that humans are not born "equal" in terms of talents and inherited traits, and nor does society at large (at least right now) equalize those resources.

But this doesn't entail that just because we're not born with the equal talents and traits, that we shouldn't be treated equally, given the same equality of opportunity or even given a leg-up by the state to help even the odds, and that's basically what 'legal equality' with a Western-style social welfare state aims to achieve.

Yet, I think we can never fully escape the warning left by the great liberal philosopher John Rawls, indeed its arguably looking more and more prophetic every day: "Equality of opportunity means an equal chance to leave the less fortunate behind in the personal quest for influence and social position."

Or as Pope Francis said a number of years ago in an address:


Pastoral visit of the Holy Father Francis to the Archdiocese of Genoa (27 May 2017) – Meeting with the world of work at the Ilva Factory


The new capitalism, through meritocracy, gives a moral appearance to inequality because it interprets the talents of people not as a gift: talent is not a gift according to this interpretation: it is a merit, determining a system of cumulative advantages and disadvantages.

Thus, if two children are born differently in terms of talent or social and economic opportunities, the economic world will interpret the different talents as merits and will pay them otherwise. And so, when those two children retire, the inequality between them will be multiplied...

This is the old logic of Job’s friends, who wanted to convince him that he was guilty of his misfortune. But this is not the logic of the Gospel, it is not the logic of life
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Equality is a lie. Is it not?
We are not born equal. I was not born royal. My parents/grandparents worked in the fields
Our lives are not equal. My life is not equal to that of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We are not treated as equals. I am not treated as Beyoncé is treated. IOW as a celebrity get treated.

Is equality just a pie in the sky idealism we are supposed to pretend exists?
Is it roleplay? A way to feel better about the truth of inequality?

The end goal of equality, is it realistic? If not, what is the point?
"Perfection" is a lie! It doesn't exist in the "real world"!

Well, if the "real world" excludes the world of ideas, which would be a very silly thing to exclude, then I guess it doesn't. But I don't exclude ideas from reality, since reality, itself, is an idea. So I do not exclude ideas like equality and perfection from my reality. But you can do to your reality whatever you think best. :)
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This is a common strawman propped up by certain people.

1. No one is saying everyone is equal. We are clearly not all equal.
2. The push for "equality" means crafting policy to provide "equal opportunity" to everyone to succeed. Even this goal is an impossible ideal, but we can get closer and closer with pragmatic societal changes. A genius child should not fail to achieve their genius by dying of an ear infection because their parents couldn't afford antibiotics, for example. Note that this doesn't mean everyone should be a genius of equal intelligence, it just says everyone should have the opportunity to maximize their innate personal talents, whatever those may be.
3. Equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcomes. However, outcomes are currently the best metric to measure whether opportunities are becoming more equal. Therefore there is a secondary focus on outcomes.
4. Equal opportunities also entails equal treatment under the law, which is really a struggle in the US as countless examples show.

Equality means "as equal an opportunity for everyone to succeed as possible." It just seems like there are a lot of people who would rather see minorities stay "in their place," even if it means fewer great musicians, cancer drug inventors, writers, etc. And so we see this obfuscation. The BLM movement means "Black lives matter, too" and not "only black lives matter" as it has been recast by right wing types. We see the same attempted rebranding for "equality," and I'd argue it's for the same motivations.

Ok, what steps do we need to take to achieve this equality of opportunity or what are we currently lacking?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Are there people actually saying that right now, everyone is born equal?

Well paraphrased from created equal as in the Declaration of Independence. Is there a difference between being born and created?

The last few questions you ask (about equality being a goal) brings to mind the saying, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good". IOW, we shouldn't stop trying to make things more equal because absolute universal equality isn't realistic.

Yes, I was wondering what is the realistic goal.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Well paraphrased from created equal as in the Declaration of Independence. Is there a difference between being born and created?
Yeah, I think the concepts behind each are different. "Created equal" refers to the belief that no one group is inherently superior to another (the historical disconnect aside), while "born equal" I assume (since it's not from any actual source) refers to what you described in the OP.

Yes, I was wondering what is the realistic goal.
To minimize unfair inequities in society.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
"Perfection" is a lie! It doesn't exist in the "real world"!

Well, if the "real world" excludes the world of ideas, which would be a very silly thing to exclude, then I guess it doesn't. But I don't exclude ideas from reality, since reality, itself, is an idea. So I do not exclude ideas like equality and perfection from my reality. But you can do to your reality whatever you think best. :)

Not really. I mean I may think it best that people treat me like Jeff Bezos but wanting it ain't going to make it happen.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
"Quando il gioco è finito, il re e il pedone entrano nella stessa scatola." (When the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.)
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Equality is a lie. Is it not?
We are not born equal. I was not born royal. My parents/grandparents worked in the fields
Our lives are not equal. My life is not equal to that of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We are not treated as equals. I am not treated as Beyoncé is treated. IOW as a celebrity get treated.

Is equality just a pie in the sky idealism we are supposed to pretend exists?
Is it roleplay? A way to feel better about the truth of inequality?

The end goal of equality, is it realistic? If not, what is the point?

I think several posts above eloquently lay out the myth of equality. Even on law there is disparity related to economic class.

Perhaps we should turn away from notions of equality and instead strive for a minimum standard of living that is reasonable and just.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Equality is a lie. Is it not?
We are not born equal. I was not born royal. My parents/grandparents worked in the fields
Our lives are not equal. My life is not equal to that of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We are not treated as equals. I am not treated as Beyoncé is treated. IOW as a celebrity get treated.

Is equality just a pie in the sky idealism we are supposed to pretend exists?
Is it roleplay? A way to feel better about the truth of inequality?

The end goal of equality, is it realistic? If not, what is the point?

My view is that equality is a vaguely-defined term which means whatever anyone wants to mean for whatever context they're trying to convey. It's just like the word "freedom." Words like "freedom" and "equality" come across more as slogans and propaganda terms, abstractions at best, not any genuine or accurate description of the concrete reality we actually live in.

The reason we don't have equality is because, frankly, a lot of people don't really want it. They believe in a certain Darwinian natural order and hierarchy. Some people talk about "alpha males" as if they're some sort of upper caste which is a normal and natural fact of life.

When people talk about equality, they say that it really means "equality before the law," but even that's a lie, since the law is a matter of who has the most money to hire lawyers. If you don't have money to hire a lawyer, then you have no chance at equality before the law.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Equality is a lie. Is it not?
We are not born equal. I was not born royal. My parents/grandparents worked in the fields
Our lives are not equal. My life is not equal to that of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We are not treated as equals. I am not treated as Beyoncé is treated. IOW as a celebrity get treated.

Is equality just a pie in the sky idealism we are supposed to pretend exists?
Is it roleplay? A way to feel better about the truth of inequality?

The end goal of equality, is it realistic? If not, what is the point?

we are born equal

we die equal

everything in between, not so much
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
From worldly POV it is a lie

From spiritual POV it is a truth

In some versions of spirituality. Not every version.
For some they believe in a chosen few.

In my "worldly view", I tend to treat folks equally except when forced to do otherwise because they hold some physical, financial power over me.
Equality is nice among those you find trustworthy. Unfortunately this doesn't usually extend very far.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
For some they believe in a chosen few.
The question remains, does this belong to "worldly POV" or "Spiritual POV"?

To me, the Bible seems quite clear in this at least, but of course there might be individuals who believe differently or interpret the Bible differently:
Beware of Personal Favoritism
2 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
We are all equal as humans in terms of intrinsic/inherent value but we are not all born with or into equal rights or with certain privileges. That is true.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Equality is a lie. Is it not?
We are not born equal. I was not born royal. My parents/grandparents worked in the fields
Our lives are not equal. My life is not equal to that of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We are not treated as equals. I am not treated as Beyoncé is treated. IOW as a celebrity get treated.

Is equality just a pie in the sky idealism we are supposed to pretend exists?
Is it roleplay? A way to feel better about the truth of inequality?

The end goal of equality, is it realistic? If not, what is the point?
service to all as self is possible; if all are loving. everyone wants to be loved but not everyone want to love other as self.


its called hypocrisy when one says do as i say and not as i do.


but the wealthy don't want wealth distribution laws because they hire politicians as lobbyists to do just that.
 
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