Eselam & Ymir: Homosexuality

[YmirGF]

*starts buffing nails*

 

[Gharib]

It does? Are you positive that your mind is not running off with your imagination?

:no:

OK, given that I have PM'd two separate people on RF with my "mission" in this discussion, perhaps you could expand on this. Why have I offered to do this, Eselam? Don't be coy.

i made a statement regarding homosexuality. the scenario i used was almost identical to Ymir's childhood. i kept saying that homosexuality occurs in the early years of a child, at which time they have no choice in being homosexual. but once they grow up they have the choice to fight homosexuality and become heterosexual again, it's all got to do with the brain. YmirGF was somewhat pulled by that post of mine, that he offered to go through my claims that homosexuality is a choice. now i've said many times in many threads that no one will believe me, one reason being I'M NOT A SCIENTIST so anything i say is just my ussuported oppinion. nonetheless, i accepted Ymir's challenge to use him as a lab rat even though i know he wont accept anything i have to say.

Which statement? I am not about to go in search of your rantings. Simply copy and paste here what you wish me to comment on.

the following is the post i made regarding homosexuality.

alright lets see me prove myself right that no one would believe me.

have said it before and will say it again, homosexuality is due to a persons surrounding environment. it is not much of a choice to be homosexual when one is under the age of 10. but due to factors such as a boy playing with girls, of which there are many other cases other than just this, the boys brain starts to like what the girls do, he starts to do addapt to the likes of females. now at this stage it isn't much of a personal choice like i said, cos he doen't understand whats going on, nor does he know that life is about men being attracted to women. but it is the parents fault for letting this happen. it is the same example as leaving a young cat to grow up with pupps, the cats brain addapts to the dogs behaviour, and you have a cat acting like a dog. same with the boy. but once the boy grows then he can understand that life is about men and women, not men and men. but still he's brain is affected from the childhood factors therefore it won't just automatically change to it's normal course. but the man can change that part of his brain back to how it is sopposed to be if he really wanted, it is something reversible, but most homosexuals denie that it isn't natural and thus they denie there is something wrong with them that needs fixing.

this is just a sneak preview of what i can say about it. but too bad no one will take it seriously.

so Ymir, how accurate is that statement regarding your childhood. now i know you aren't going to be honest in this thread, but why let it go to waste.

Hmmmmmmm. It was so long ago... it was before primary school, that is for sure. I think I was about 3 or 4 actually.

i have a hard time believing that you are telling the truth. no child has feelings about another child at this age unless the parents have something to do with it. i certainly have never witnessed a homosexual child to fall for the same sex at this age unless it's got something to do with the parents.

but still, you could say i have enough details about you to tell you how things hapened.

 

[YmirGF]

:no:

You see, Eselam, that is troublesome (for you) because you have come to a conclusion which is based very flimsy evidence, without actually doing any research to validate your thinking. To me, that is a bit disturbing.

i made a statement regarding homosexuality. the scenario i used was almost identical to Ymir's childhood.

Um, no it isn't, Eselam. The proof of this is that you are already in doubt about what I am telling you in fact occurred. The facts of my experience run counter to your thinking, so I must be lying. This isn't promising, my friend, but it does show how uninterested you are in learning the truth... because you think you already know the truth.

i kept saying that homosexuality occurs in the early years of a child, at which time they have no choice in being homosexual.

Heaven forbid it is simply the way the child was born.

but once they grow up they have the choice to fight homosexuality and become heterosexual again, it's all got to do with the brain.

I'm sorry, Eselam, but that is just plain silly. You are confusing external peer group pressures and societal forces with internal forces, although that doesn't surprise me much. What you don't realize that no one WANTS to be gay, they just are. It isn't something you choose to do. Here I don't want to leave the impression that being gay is a bad thing, as it isn't. It is simply our societies inbred prejudice, fully supported by religious doctrine, that tells us it is wrong. Part of being gay and accepting it is understanding that this widely held viewpoint is simply incorrect and results from centuries of denial, distortion and vilification.

YmirGF was somewhat pulled by that post of mine, that he offered to go through my claims that homosexuality is a choice.

Hardly, Eselam. I took you up on your offer because I am going to try to teach you something. I am going to teach you a lesson. So, sit back son and try to listen, but more importantly, try to understand. I'm a pretty good teacher, so if you wish to learn, I can probably dispel some of the myths you hold dear -- providing your mind is not already made up, which I suspect, it is.

now i've said many times in many threads that no one will believe me, one reason being I'M NOT A SCIENTIST so anything i say is just my ussuported oppinion. nonetheless, i accepted Ymir's challenge to use him as a lab rat even though i know he wont accept anything i have to say.

In reality, Eselam, even if you were a scientist, I would recognize you were not a very good scientist as you refuse to accept any evidence that falls outside of your preconceived notions about a subject you choose to discuss. It's like you are an expert in a field you have never studied. Rather than finding your idea compelling in any way, I found it repugnant, like a three-headed dog and decided the only humane thing was to put said theory out of its misery. THAT is why I am here discussing this with you, so don't get your hopes up too high, my friend.

the following is the post i made regarding homosexuality.

alright lets see me prove myself right that no one would believe me.

have said it before and will say it again, homosexuality is due to a persons surrounding environment. it is not much of a choice to be homosexual when one is under the age of 10. but due to factors such as a boy playing with girls, of which there are many other cases other than just this, the boys brain starts to like what the girls do, he starts to do addapt to the likes of females. now at this stage it isn't much of a personal choice like i said, cos he doen't understand whats going on, nor does he know that life is about men being attracted to women. but it is the parents fault for letting this happen. it is the same example as leaving a young cat to grow up with pupps, the cats brain addapts to the dogs behaviour, and you have a cat acting like a dog. same with the boy. but once the boy grows then he can understand that life is about men and women, not men and men. but still he's brain is affected from the childhood factors therefore it won't just automatically change to it's normal course. but the man can change that part of his brain back to how it is sopposed to be if he really wanted, it is something reversible, but most homosexuals denie that it isn't natural and thus they denie there is something wrong with them that needs fixing.

this is just a sneak preview of what i can say about it. but too bad no one will take it seriously.

But there is a good reason why people do not think you are right about this little excuse for a theory, Eselam. It's because you don't actually know what you are talking about that people will not believe you unless of course, they suffer from a similar, religiously sanctioned, homophobic mindset as you do.

As best as I can recall, when I first commented about this "piece" (of drivel) I stated that it wasn't actually as ridiculous as I had expected. That didn't mean that I was being supportive in any way. I simply expected worse. Though your viewpoint is quite simplistic, this piece does show that you have given the matter a tiny bit of thought, however errant that thought may be. If you like, I'd be happy to critique each line though I do not have the time at this very moment.

so Ymir, how accurate is that statement regarding your childhood. now i know you aren't going to be honest in this thread, but why let it go to waste.

But Eselam, if I want to show you how and why you are wrong, why would I need to lie? It does not bode well that you think I would lie to you as it shows you are not willing to accept anything that is at variance with your viewpoint.

In other respects, I am a bit offended that you claim that I won't be honest. You can say many things about me, Eselam, but most people understand and like what I say because I am honest and "tell it like it is". I don't mince words behind needless flowery garbage simply to convey a false sense of respect. If anything, I am brutally honest and that my friend, is what you cannot handle. Ultimately you believe homosexuality is wrong because the Qur'an says so. Since you believe the Qur'an is without error, you simply cannot (and will not) accept anything someone says that casts doubt on anything contained within its pages. Frankly, it's time for people to put down their books and begin paying attention to reality.

i have a hard time believing that you are telling the truth. no child has feelings about another child at this age unless the parents have something to do with it.

Says who? You?

i certainly have never witnessed a homosexual child to fall for the same sex at this age unless it's got something to do with the parents.

Um no, it had nothing to do with my parents, Eselam. It was simple curiosity.

but still, you could say i have enough details about you to tell you how things hapened.

Actually, Eselam, you have nothing. You just don't realize it quite yet. Do go ahead and explain it to me though. Your viewpoint ought to be vastly entertaining, though this is akin to shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[Gharib]

alright Ymir lets get down to bussines.

first of all i'll just explain some things so that there aren't any misconceptions or misunderstandings regarding what i will say or have said.

1. i claim to know how homosexuality works. i do not know what a particular persons childhood may have been, so everyone should realise that what i will say isn't necessarily going to be Ymir's childhood.
2. The example i have given such as having sisters will result in a boy ending up gay isn’t 100% true in all cases. By that i mean that there are people who have had sisters but have not ended up gay. There are however cases when someone has had brothers only and has ended up gay.
3. The example i will be speaking of in this thread is the one about Ymir’s childhood ( ie. Having older sisters) but i won’t be telling what Ymir’s childhood was OK cos i don’t know that. Ymir’s childhood may be very similar to what i will say, but then again it may not.
4. If i remember or get reminded about some things that i should have included in this list i will say so.

oh and by the way, i did say no one will believe me reagrding this and post #23 very well proves me right. i am a muslim so who'd be so dumb to accept anything i have to say? i'm not a scientist either so what i say isn't true. let that be a lesson to all of you. if someone isn't a scientist then everything they say is a lie, it is all due to their religion. go atheists. wooo hoooo. :bonkno offence to anyone)

 

[YmirGF]

first of all i'll just explain some things so that there aren't any misconceptions or misunderstandings regarding what i will say or have said.

It might have been helpful if you had started with this explanation.

1. i claim to know how homosexuality works. i do not know what a particular persons childhood may have been, so everyone should realise that what i will say isn't necessarily going to be Ymir's childhood.

So via this clause you can now skirt over any variation between your illusory view and reality. Nice... almost clever. I have always known this type of thing as "covering one's butt", lest one make themselves the butt of jokes.

2. The example i have given such as having sisters will result in a boy ending up gay isn’t 100% true in all cases. By that i mean that there are people who have had sisters but have not ended up gay. There are however cases when someone has had brothers only and has ended up gay.

I am sensing a distinct back-peddling motion here. So, in essence, you are saying that your viewpoint may or may not accurately reflect reality. Addling a layer of vagueness to your argument isn't going to help convince people about you are saying. In fact, it will only water it down.

3. The example i will be speaking of in this thread is the one about Ymir’s childhood ( ie. Having older sisters) but i won’t be telling what Ymir’s childhood was OK cos i don’t know that. Ymir’s childhood may be very similar to what i will say, but then again it may not.

Which makes me question the validity of your hypothesis from the start. One does have to question the wisdom of making a claim that may or may not be an accurate reflection of reality, especially if the claim cannot be determined one way or the other. One arrives at the point of "Why bother" with unexpected speed.

4. If i remember or get reminded about some things that i should have included in this list i will say so.

So, you are going to trot out you hypothesis as an "in progress" work, but reserve the right to shore up sagging sections of reason as you deem necessary. Not promising, my friend. Remind me not to ask you to design a building for me. It is normally advisable to start with a sound foundation before one attempts to compensate for design flaws in that foundation.

oh and by the way, i did say no one will believe me reagrding this and post #23 very well proves me right. i am a muslim so who'd be so dumb to accept anything i have to say? i'm not a scientist either so what i say isn't true. let that be a lesson to all of you. if someone isn't a scientist then everything they say is a lie, it is all due to their religion. go atheists. wooo hoooo. :bonkno offence to anyone)

As usual, Eselam, you miss the point. Your religion is central to your world view and forms the bedrock of your understanding. You simply cannot claim otherwise. Islam is very clear on homosexuality and your views have grown from that central core of understanding. Again, you simply cannot argue this point. It is fact.

What you don't seem to grasp is that I do not doubt your viewpoint BECAUSE you are a Muslim. I don't. Neither would I say that we should dismiss your view BECAUSE you are a Muslim. The reason I dismiss your view is because your view does not reflect reality and you are extremely resistant to either questioning your view or learning what modern science has discovered about human sexuality. THAT is why I dismiss your view. The fact you follow Islam is simply the ROOT of why you think the way you do. Your current views on sexuality have grown out of the core beliefs you accept from your religion. In that regards, your ideas are your own, but they grew from seeds planted by Islam.

Likewise, the fact that you are not a scientists has little to do with dismissing your ideas. The dismissal is because you have not adequately researched your topic and are basing your thinking on assumptions that you have not verified.

If that isn't clear enough, then I will be happy to cover this in more depth.


But... so much for preamble. Please simply get on to whatever it is you wanted to talk about.

 

[YmirGF]

I'm beginning to think that Eselam isn't quite so interested in educating me as I had originally thought.

Perhaps he is wary of my rather large bulldozer.

 

[YmirGF]

Please, Eselam, show us the infinite light of your genius in regards to human sexuality.

I see that Madhatter85 has put his head on the proverbial chopping blog in the thread

Possible explanations for homosexuality explained

Hopefully you will not fall into the primitive traps that he has.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, it has been seven days since Eselam's last visit.
I guess he isn't really interested in explaining his views after all.

Too bad.

 

[YmirGF]

It would appear that Eselam has decided to tackle one who is both younger and smarter than I to continue his delusions about Homosexuality. Pity he never came back to this thread, though I can understand why.

The latest drivel he is spouting can be found in the thread, "Does Homosexuality Occur in Animals?"

Sadly, Eselam's hubcaps seem to have hit quicksand already and they are only at post #8. It's almost like watching a train-wreck in slo' mo'.

 

[Gharib]

It would appear that Eselam has decided to tackle one who is both younger and smarter than I to continue his delusions about Homosexuality. Pity he never came back to this thread, though I can understand why.

The latest drivel he is spouting can be found in the thread, "Does Homosexuality Occur in Animals?"

Sadly, Eselam's hubcaps seem to have hit quicksand already and they are only at post #8. It's almost like watching a train-wreck in slo' mo'.

can you realy understand why i stoped posting here? i doubt that but just thought i'd ask the question anyway.

go over this thread once more Ymir. read your posts, you have clearly made your mind up that what i have to say is just nonsense. i do not engage in usless talk. i didn't say i can help you with willfull ignorance. i said homosexuality.

sorry but i don't see a point to continue this discussion with you when you have already made up your mind.

 

[YmirGF]

can you realy understand why i stoped posting here? i doubt that but just thought i'd ask the question anyway.

go over this thread once more Ymir. read your posts, you have clearly made your mind up that what i have to say is just nonsense. i do not engage in usless talk. i didn't say i can help you with willfull ignorance. i said homosexuality.

sorry but i don't see a point to continue this discussion with you when you have already made up your mind.

Nice cop out, Eselam. A reasonable person would simply have explained their theory and let the chips fall where they may. You are a pretender and not interested in learning anything. I am willing to entertain your thinking, and have asked you repeatedly to outline your thinking, the problem is, you have never deigned to spill the beans. So as long as you hide behind the position of another party not being open to your ideas the more obvious it becomes that your ideas will not likely withstand close scrutiny.

Given what you have written about the subject on RF, to date, leads me to believe your "theory" is little more than ill-informed, superficial, codswallop. You have the opportunity to change my mind by proving that your ideas make some measure of sense and yet, you resist. I suppose my point is "Put up or shut up!"