ESP, really?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Forgive me, there is nothing at stake for me in this discussion but did you go to College? No Randi pulled it down because many challengers, including myself, came forward who had telepathy; Randi is not an honest man. But, hey, you don't have to believe in telepathy I just know many people have it. We've only had it on Earth since 2012, people before had it but very few. Do you live an isolated life? So many miracles going on I always wonder about this.

Well, there are three claims in the quoted post that ought to be fairly easy to prove, if anyone (especially @Searching1981 ) would care to undertake to do so.
1. We would like to see some evidence that anyone presented evidence to Randi strong enough to convince him to pull down his offer, and not for the reasons given by Randi and JREF (see below).
2. Can you demonstrate that Randi is not an honest man?
3. Can you produce and provide verification for anybody, including yourself, who has ESP
4. Can you provide evidence that ESP didn't come to Earth prior to 2012
5. Do you have any documented (for the public to see) miracles?

 

[Nakosis]

Here's an experiment reportedly showing the probable existence of ESP published in 2011. So I guess falsifies number 4.

http://dbem.ws/FeelingFuture.pdf

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A mildly tangent point, to the main theme:

Sign on the wall:

"Meeting of the Psychics Club has been postponed due to unforeseen circumstances"

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If your average psychic could actually see the future? Do you not think they would clean up in the Stock Market?

Oh, sure-- there's the obvious, the Lottery-- but that's precisely why you'd avoid that one-- too obvious, if you kept winning.

But the Stock Market is exactly the right venue: it's gambling, only on a giant scale.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Or how about this one: Why do you never see Faith Healers at actual hospitals?

Why is it, they always and ever, only seem to "work" in very large crowds, where large sums of money are required of the crowd, in order for them to be ... "successful"....?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

And finally? If telepathy is a real thing? There are venues in Las Vegas, where knowing what someone else is thinking, could net you boatloads of money.

Heck-- you could be circumspect about it, and only win a little, on a fairly regular basis---spread your wins out over multiple casinos, and nobody would even notice...

Yes, yes-- instant riches is a fairly mundane motivation, but it's also fairly universal....


Hmmmm.... maybe that is how that one dude won so big on Jeopardy...

 

[George-ananda]

1. We would like to see some evidence that anyone presented evidence to Randi strong enough to convince him to pull down his offer, and not for the reasons given by Randi and JREF (see below).
2. Can you demonstrate that Randi is not an honest man?

Personally, I have come to believe Randi is a showman with a show and no intellectual honesty. Why do I believe that? Because I have spent decades now studying the paranormal from all sides and formed a strong opinion. I can not condense decades of study into a reply post but you can find as much as you care to read for and against Randi, and then we each have to form our own opinion as to what we think is going on.

3. Can you produce and provide verification for anybody, including yourself, who has ESP

I believe ESP has been proven by controlled experiments. See Dean Radin as one parapsychologist that makes the case and the ganzfeld experiments.

As with all controversial topics you must seriously acquaint yourself with both sides of an argument and then form your own opinion.

4. Can you provide evidence that ESP didn't come to Earth prior to 2012

I think he said ESP existed throughout history but in recent times there is and increase in human consciousness and abilities. Personally, I think there is some truth to this but the changes are only slow and gradual.

5. Do you have any documented (for the public to see) miracles?

The internet has many such videos such as the so-called Hindi Milk Miracle and many other religious miracles.

To have an informed opinion one must listen to all sides carefully, think logically and form your own opinion. Personally, I believe the Hindu Milk Miracle and many other religious miracles are genuine.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Well, there are three claims in the quoted post that ought to be fairly easy to prove, if anyone (especially @Searching1981 ) would care to undertake to do so.
1. We would like to see some evidence that anyone presented evidence to Randi strong enough to convince him to pull down his offer, and not for the reasons given by Randi and JREF (see below).
2. Can you demonstrate that Randi is not an honest man?
3. Can you produce and provide verification for anybody, including yourself, who has ESP
4. Can you provide evidence that ESP didn't come to Earth prior to 2012
5. Do you have any documented (for the public to see) miracles?

Both calculating charlatans/con-men and the misguided/credulous share the attribute of not caring at all about actual intellectual honesty, logical consistency, or supportable factuality. Both for different reasons, but resulting in a sub-culture of childish fantasy and ignorance run amok.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Personally, I have come to believe Randi is a showman with a show and no intellectual honesty. Why do I believe that? Because I have spent decades now studying the paranormal from all sides and formed a strong opinion. I can not condense decades of study into a reply post but you can find as much as you care to read for and against Randi, and then we each have to form our own opinion as to what we think is going on.


I believe ESP has been proven by controlled experiments. See Dean Radin as one parapsychologist that makes the case and the ganzfeld experiments.

As with all controversial topics you must seriously acquaint yourself with both sides of an argument and then form your own opinion.


I think he said ESP existed throughout history but in recent times there is and increase in human consciousness and abilities. Personally, I think there is some truth to this but the changes are only slow and gradual.

The internet has many such videos such as the so-called Hindi Milk Miracle and many other religious miracles.

To have an informed opinion one must listen to all sides carefully, think logically and form your own opinion. Personally, I believe the Hindu Milk Miracle and many other religious miracles are genuine.

Yet you shut down as soon as someone starts asking for proof.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yet you shut down as soon as someone starts asking for proof.

You'd think someone with those kinds of abilities would always have proof on-hand. I mean, you shouldn't be able to surprise them, right?

 

[Nous]

Well, there are three claims in the quoted post that ought to be fairly easy to prove, if anyone (especially @Searching1981 ) would care to undertake to do so.
1. We would like to see some evidence that anyone presented evidence to Randi strong enough to convince him to pull down his offer, and not for the reasons given by Randi and JREF (see below).
2. Can you demonstrate that Randi is not an honest man?
3. Can you produce and provide verification for anybody, including yourself, who has ESP
4. Can you provide evidence that ESP didn't come to Earth prior to 2012
5. Do you have any documented (for the public to see) miracles?

Are you asking a question here about the findings of experiments testing anomalous cognition, such as those studies sponsored by the US government?

If so, statistics professor Jessica Utts tells us:

Research on psychic functioning, conducted over a two decade period, is examined to determine whether or not the phenomenon has been scientifically established. A secondary question is whether or not it is useful for government purposes. The primary work examined in this report was government sponsored research conducted at Stanford Research Institute, later known as SRI International, and at Science Applications International Corporation, known as SAIC.

Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established. The statistical results of the studies examined are far beyond what is expected by chance. Arguments that these results could be due to methodological flaws in the experiments are soundly refuted. Effects of similar magnitude to those found in government-sponsored research at SRI and SAIC have been replicated at a number of laboratories across the world. Such consistency cannot be readily explained by claims of flaws or fraud.

The magnitude of psychic functioning exhibited appears to be in the range between what social scientists call a small and medium effect. That means that it is reliable enough to be replicated in properly conducted experiments, with sufficient trials to achieve the long-run statistical results needed for replicability.​

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/air.pdf

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Are you asking a question here about the findings of experiments testing anomalous cognition, such as those studies sponsored by the US government?

If so, statistics professor Jessica Utts tells us:

Research on psychic functioning, conducted over a two decade period, is examined to determine whether or not the phenomenon has been scientifically established. A secondary question is whether or not it is useful for government purposes. The primary work examined in this report was government sponsored research conducted at Stanford Research Institute, later known as SRI International, and at Science Applications International Corporation, known as SAIC.

Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established. The statistical results of the studies examined are far beyond what is expected by chance. Arguments that these results could be due to methodological flaws in the experiments are soundly refuted. Effects of similar magnitude to those found in government-sponsored research at SRI and SAIC have been replicated at a number of laboratories across the world. Such consistency cannot be readily explained by claims of flaws or fraud.

The magnitude of psychic functioning exhibited appears to be in the range between what social scientists call a small and medium effect. That means that it is reliable enough to be replicated in properly conducted experiments, with sufficient trials to achieve the long-run statistical results needed for replicability.​

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/air.pdf

Repeatable experiments?

So let me ask you, which experiments do you remove from your meta-analysis?

Lets say I had 100 experiments of a 100 different people guessing a coin toss 5 times.

Well chances are that many of them will guess above the average and many will guess below the average. So if I wanted to deceive people or if I had massive confirmation bias, I would just include the experiments where people guesses above average chance.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Are you asking a question here about the findings of experiments testing anomalous cognition, such as those studies sponsored by the US government?

If so, statistics professor Jessica Utts tells us:

Research on psychic functioning, conducted over a two decade period, is examined to determine whether or not the phenomenon has been scientifically established. A secondary question is whether or not it is useful for government purposes. The primary work examined in this report was government sponsored research conducted at Stanford Research Institute, later known as SRI International, and at Science Applications International Corporation, known as SAIC.

Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established. The statistical results of the studies examined are far beyond what is expected by chance. Arguments that these results could be due to methodological flaws in the experiments are soundly refuted. Effects of similar magnitude to those found in government-sponsored research at SRI and SAIC have been replicated at a number of laboratories across the world. Such consistency cannot be readily explained by claims of flaws or fraud.

The magnitude of psychic functioning exhibited appears to be in the range between what social scientists call a small and medium effect. That means that it is reliable enough to be replicated in properly conducted experiments, with sufficient trials to achieve the long-run statistical results needed for replicability.​

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/air.pdf

Also what the **** is this supposed to be?

This does not even cite sources from what I can see, and if it does somewhere it **** sure did not cite them properly.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The internet has many such videos such as the so-called Hindi Milk Miracle and many other religious miracles.

So? I have seen videos of purple aliens and lime-green kittens fighting zombies with machine guns.

I've also seen videos of pretty amazing slight-of-hand tricks too.

A video isn't proof of anything-- except as an exercise in technical proficiency of photoshop (or the video equivalent).

Nothing on YouTube is valid proof of anything. Nothing-- it's too easy to fake.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

evidence to Randi strong enough to convince him to pull down his offer, and not for the reasons given by Randi and JREF (see below).

Still looking for a clear reason why Randi changed tack.
If the reason was clear, you would have been able to mention it in one short phrase, not avoid it.

Here are my beliefs on the matter, and I cannot easily prove them, but I can see no alternative to this:

ESP is not a purely physical phenomenon.
Our universe consists of layers of reality, or planes of existence.
If you have read Abbott's flatland, then you should understand what I mean in math terms.

Think of a series of 2-d universes stacked on top of one another in a 3rd dimension.
Except for us, this extra dimension of space is 4-d space.
So we have a series of 3-d universes on top of one another.
The universe below us is less enlightened, the one above is more enlightened.

Conversations can pass between the universes, and this is how telepathy works.
So an angel (above us) can give us a message, or perhaps pass on a message.
Messages seem to be also sent via the plane below us.

I am not claiming I am certain of all the details.
The message needs to go through another consciousness, a medium, it is never direct.
But the essential ingredient which most analysts are missing in their
search for ESP, is simply this: ethics.

I suppose you might think of it as a highly ethically censored internet.
People who offer money for ESP or seek to make money off ESP
are trying to catch sunlight with a mirror. Sorry, that is not a good analogy.

You see, if ESP was as easy as making a phone call, then the world
would collapse into chaos, because people are greedy and full of vengeance and
vindictiveness. I always shake my head and sigh whenever I see the JREF appeal.

Only if you have the highest ethical goals will you experience ESP.
I have tried counting the number of times I have had such experiences.
I lost count after a dozen. I thought I may write them into an article.
But what would my intentions be for doing so?

ESP will happen to you, when and if you need it to.
If you really are just utterly curious about the paranormal, then you need
to ask yourself this clear question:

Are you willing to go to hell to save your worst enemies?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Are you willing to go to hell to save your worst enemies?

I'd rather have the biblical "hell" than the biblical "heaven".

Harp music, 24/7 forever? Seriously? Streets made of solid gold? How often will they be replaced, 'cause gold is soft and wears out quickly.

I mean: you can barely get most folk to attend church, once a week, for an hour-- but you expect them to be happy with 24/7 Uberchurch... for ever and ever?

This is not ordinary church, where one can safely take a little nap during a particularly boring sermon, or skip singing a hymn that is not especially a favorite-- no-- participation would be mandatory, according to the literature....

Meanwhile? Hell has 90% of the scientists and engineers. And 99% of the lawyers too. And, by all accounts, 100% of the Rock Musicians of any talent....

With that many clever people working on the problem? By the time *I* get to hell?

It'll have air conditioning, excellent rock music, and likely-- if you want-- you can sue anyone for anything and win!

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

I'd rather have

My heaven has reggae music, some of the better blues artists,
but I have to disagree, and say that Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morisson, & Janis Joplin
are certainly in heaven.

The place you are thinking of with the incessant harp music is a hell made for what
Shaggy has called 'church heathens'.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Not going to respond to some of the nonsense posted.

Will say this: if evolution is true (and it is, by the way), then every evolved thing would have ESP, sans exception. Being a little better able to avoid being eaten, or to take advantage of a survival or reproductive opportunity is what makes evolution work. But to be able to PREDICT those things would be such a colossal advantage that it could not possibly avoid being passed on.

Therefore, either ESP is true or evolution is true. Not. both

Examine the evidence available to you in the real world, and decide for yourself.

 

[George-ananda]

So? I have seen videos of purple aliens and lime-green kittens fighting zombies with machine guns.

I've also seen videos of pretty amazing slight-of-hand tricks too.

A video isn't proof of anything-- except as an exercise in technical proficiency of photoshop (or the video equivalent).

Nothing on YouTube is valid proof of anything. Nothing-- it's too easy to fake.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Not going to respond to some of the nonsense posted.

Will say this: if evolution is true (and it is, by the way), then every evolved thing would have ESP, sans exception. Being a little better able to avoid being eaten, or to take advantage of a survival or reproductive opportunity is what makes evolution work. But to be able to PREDICT those things would be such a colossal advantage that it could not possibly avoid being passed on.

Therefore, either ESP is true or evolution is true. Not. both

Examine the evidence available to you in the real world, and decide for yourself.

Clearly illogical, because not everything has sight.