Eternal Damnation

[Madhuri]

One thing that a lot of people struggle with is this idea that a person could deserve eternal damnation. I've come across a number of followers of Abrahamic religions who believe in hell, are sympathetic of those who they believe will go to hell, but express that they cannot judge God's actions. In other words, they are more sympathetic than God seems to be.

But I want to ask people as individuals if they believe there is any act that makes a person deserve eternal punishment. This is a personal question. If you had the authority to condemn someone to this hell, which acts make a person deserve such a punishment. Please do not refer to scripture because the question isn't about what God does, but what you would feel is justice.

I personally would not send anyone to hell. Nobody deserves to be tortured so terribly for so long. If I could be so heartless or lack empathy to such an extent than I would be as bad or worse than the persons I condemn. Even the most damaged individual is capable of being healed. To throw them out is to not care, to give up on them. I'd try to help them, not torture them. That helps no-one.

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't even think Hitler would deserve an eternity of punishment.

I'm not even sure I agree with the concept of punishment at all. Two wrongs don't make a right. I mean I agree with jail to keep dangerous people away from functional society, but punishment for punishment's sake seems somehow wrong to me.

I mean, I watched a show the other day where a guy with a knife was being talked down by police, and he actually stabbed at one of the officer's neck (nearly killing him) and they were still trying to bring him down non-lethally. I'm sorry, but if you attack an officer with deadly intent (and you're not... say, living in Nazi Germany and the "officers" are actually oppressors) then you forfeit your life... think they would be wholly justified in just popping that guy full of rounds then and there. But that's not punishment, that's just protecting their lives instead of worrying about some murderous scumbag's.

 

[ellenjanuary]

some murderous scumbag...
Jeez... what if he was off his meds? I'm not really arguing, because I agree with you. Cops have enough crap to deal with. Ain't enough money in the world, gonna get me to wanna step into a domestic disturbance. But pulling a weapon on a cop? Nah. Someone does that, and they get capped, well... live and learn, murderous scumbag!

What were we arguing about? Nah, we weren't arguing about hell again, were we? At least with Madhuri, we can expect a degree of sense. So, I'll give the short answer:

Impossible. We are creatures of discrete and finite measurement. No god is gonna hold us responsible forever for being an idiot today. I can illustrate this with charts, graphs, and mathematics; but my box of Gwynnies won't draw stuff.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't even think Hitler would deserve an eternity of punishment.

Yet the 3 of us just might be roomies down there.

.....I mean, I watched a show the other day where a guy with a knife was being talked down by police, and he actually stabbed at one of the officer's neck (nearly killing him) and they were still trying to bring him down non-lethally. I'm sorry, but if you attack an officer with deadly intent (and you're not... say, living in Nazi Germany and the "officers" are actually oppressors) then you forfeit your life....

I disagree. To give cops license to just summarily off a perp who intends them harm is a terrible power to grant. If one intends harm,
but the cops see the threat as actually minimal, then it makes sense to subdue'm with less than lethal force. Plus, I know many people
who have been attacked by cops without provocation. One guy knocked a cop out cold with his fist, & then prevailed in court. Twas
justified.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Yet the 3 of us just might be roomies down there.

Ain't happening. Ain't even worth thinking about. Sorry, today it even ain't working as a joke for me.... I mean, you can laugh; but I'm not laughing... well, I'm kinda laughing... never mind.

I disagree. To give cops license to just summarily off a perp who intends them harm is a terrible power to grant. If one intends harm,
but the cops see the threat as actually minimal, then it makes sense to subdue'm with less than lethal force. Plus, I know many people
who have been attacked by cops without provocation. One guy knocked a cop out cold with his fist, & then prevailed in court. Twas
justified.

You have a point. I, for one, apprieciate the advances in non-lethal technology. Overall, though; even as I tend to abhor stastics, I'll have to go with the stastistical analysis of a life lived. I know some cops, I've done some time; don't pull a weapon on a cop, is my advice.

 

[sunsplash]

One of the first questions I asked when I left Christianity (and really while I was still apart) was if sin exists and all sins are equal (what I was taught), then how can there be a hell punishing only some when all of humanity would be guilty? And that led to asking if ignorance is a sin, because you can be aware of "God" or the concept and still choose to reject because of being honestly unable to comprehend His or It's plausibility. Rejecting God would be equally as bad as being jealous of your sister who can afford the brand new car or getting high.

But then you get the people who believe there are ranks of sin so hell fits in just fine I guess. And then there are those like me who don't believe in sin but instead in "opposing balances" so salvation and hell become a non-issue.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ain't happening. Ain't even worth thinking about. Sorry, today it even ain't working as a joke for me.... I mean, you can laugh; but I'm not laughing... well, I'm kinda laughing... never mind.

Room for 1 more in our cell...if you're interested.

You have a point. I, for one, apprieciate the advances in non-lethal technology. Overall, though; even as I tend to abhor stastics, I'll have to go with the stastistical analysis of a life lived. I know some cops, I've done some time; don't pull a weapon on a cop, is my advice.

My advice is to be armed & avoid cops entirely.

 

[Penumbra]

One thing that a lot of people struggle with is this idea that a person could deserve eternal damnation. I've come across a number of followers of Abrahamic religions who believe in hell, are sympathetic of those who they believe will go to hell, but express that they cannot judge God's actions. In other words, they are more sympathetic than God seems to be.

But I want to ask people as individuals if they believe there is any act that makes a person deserve eternal punishment. This is a personal question. If you had the authority to condemn someone to this hell, which acts make a person deserve such a punishment. Please do not refer to scripture because the question isn't about what God does, but what you would feel is justice.

I personally would not send anyone to hell. Nobody deserves to be tortured so terribly for so long. If I could be so heartless or lack empathy to such an extent than I would be as bad or worse than the persons I condemn. Even the most damaged individual is capable of being healed. To throw them out is to not care, to give up on them. I'd try to help them, not torture them. That helps no-one.

Torture is never ok. I can't see how anyone can lack enough empathy to want to torture anyone, let alone for an eternity. And I don't see how anyone believes they could find any personal happiness if they know there is even one being that exists in eternal suffering.

I don't see how adding more suffering into the system resolves any of the suffering caused by the individual.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

One thing that a lot of people struggle with is this idea that a person could deserve eternal damnation. I've come across a number of followers of Abrahamic religions who believe in hell, are sympathetic of those who they believe will go to hell, but express that they cannot judge God's actions. In other words, they are more sympathetic than God seems to be.

But I want to ask people as individuals if they believe there is any act that makes a person deserve eternal punishment. This is a personal question. If you had the authority to condemn someone to this hell, which acts make a person deserve such a punishment. Please do not refer to scripture because the question isn't about what God does, but what you would feel is justice.

I personally would not send anyone to hell. Nobody deserves to be tortured so terribly for so long. If I could be so heartless or lack empathy to such an extent than I would be as bad or worse than the persons I condemn. Even the most damaged individual is capable of being healed. To throw them out is to not care, to give up on them. I'd try to help them, not torture them. That helps no-one.

Well I say crimes that destroy someone's life, like murder. It doesn't have to mean that their life ended pyschically, but emotional too. Since you took a life here on earth you life in the after life is here by forefited. Thats how I would do it if I was God.

 

[Katzpur]

Latter-day Saints do not believe in an eternal hell, at least not in one that even remotely resembles the one many Christians are so convinced exists. I would not describe us as 100% universalist, but it would probably not be too far off to say that we're maybe about 99.9999% universalist. We believe that virtually everyone who has ever lived will ultimately end up in heaven. The only ones who won't are those who commit what the Bible calls "the Unpardonable Sin." This sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Our understanding of what this sin entails is that there are only a few people in the world who are even in a position to be able to commit it. It requires a degree of knowledge about God that only a very few individuals have ever had. We do believe that those who do not accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice on their behalf -- either during their lifetime or during the time between their death and their resurrection as His Second Coming -- will be punished for the thousand year duration of the Millennium. But after that, having paid the price for their own sins, even they will be forgiven.

 

[Madhuri]

Latter-day Saints do not believe in an eternal hell, at least not in one that even remotely resembles the one many Christians are so convinced exists. I would not describe us as 100% universalist, but it would probably not be too far off to say that we're maybe about 99.9999% universalist. We believe that virtually everyone who has ever lived will ultimately end up in heaven. The only ones who won't are those who commit what the Bible calls "the Unpardonable Sin." This sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Our understanding of what this sin entails is that there are only a few people in the world who are even in a position to be able to commit it. It requires a degree of knowledge about God that only a very few individuals have ever had. We do believe that those who do not accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice on their behalf -- either during their lifetime or during the time between their death and their resurrection as His Second Coming -- will be punished for the thousand year duration of the Millennium. But after that, having paid the price for their own sins, even they will be forgiven.

What happens to people who have caused a lot of suffering to others? Do they go to heaven immediately? What's the process according to your religion? And what about ordinary people who do not believe in Jesus or God even?

I have to say, I like a lot of the concepts in the Latter-Day Saints religion :yes:

 

[Katzpur]

What happens to people who have caused a lot of suffering to others? Do they go to heaven immediately? What's the process according to your religion? And what about ordinary people who do not believe in Jesus or God even?

We don't believe that anybody goes to heaven "immediately." We believe that when a person dies, his spirit leaves his body but continues to exist in the Spirit World. I would describe this as a realm of existance as opposed to an actual space, since spirits obviously cannot be confined to a space. For the righteous, this realm of existance is "paradise," a place of peace and rest. For the wicked, it is "prison," a place of spiritual torment. The spirits in the Spirit World are conscious entities. They are us -- our unique personalities and qualities, just existing outside of our physical bodies. These spirits continue to learn, grow and make choices while they await their resurrections. We believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is being taught there by the spirits who have already come to believe in Him. (See, you're not going to be able to get rid of those pesky Mormon missionaries, even after you die! ) The spirits of the wicked who accept Him as their Savior will be freed from prison and allowed to join those in paradise. At last, when every single solitary person had had the opportunity to hear the gospel and either accept or reject it, Christ will return to the Earth to begin His Millennial Reign. Those who have accepted Him will be admitted into Heaven at the beginning of the Millennium, while those who have not, will remain in the spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be admitted into Heaven.

I have to say, I like a lot of the concepts in the Latter-Day Saints religion :yes:

Thank you! I'm happy to hear you say that. I think I'll go to bed with that thought on my mind.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Realistically I don't think anyone deserves an eternity in Hell as eternity is infinitely longer than any suffering on Earth which is finite. I think the punishment would then be infinitely disproportionate to any earthly suffering they may have committed no matter how heinous it appears to us.

 

[ellenjanuary]

One really can't "blasphme the Holy Ghost." Once one realizes the Holy Spirit, that's it; they're stuck with it. I believe that Jesus mentioned this to be the "eternal sin" to prevent immature (in faith) converts from getting themselves in trouble with a careless word.

Watch out for them Mormons, Madhuri.

Maybe my problem with this concept is the life I've lived, the people I have known. I've done time with some of the scariest creeps you'd never wanna meet. Most of 'em were just faced with a bevy of bad choices. Some of 'em, a season in hell might do some good - not an eternity - what I know of eternity, won't take but a minute.

My experience is that eternity is timelessness, not the sum of all time. When I came back from the threshold, time was slowed way, way down. A minute seemed like an hour. Thing is, our perception of "now" is not now, it is a span of around eight nanosecends. The spallest instant of awareness isn't a "now," it's a span between now and then. And as soon as something happens, one begins remembering something happening; and that memory becomes the subjective past; diverging from the objective past. All this takes up processing power. When it comes right down to it, our brains are making up stuff all the time. They are responding to the evironment with autonomous function, they are guiding a body down a causal path that is 99% deterministic.

People talk about the choices in life, but after all environmental factors are considered; a "lifetime" reduces to about a month of "free will." How is that punishable by an eternity? Besides, with tthe span of awareness I mention above... spirit processes information a little differently - much faster. So, a second of "reform school" would be like a year. Time served, yer Honor.

 

[Erebus]

You see if I was in charge, I'd send everybody interesting to Hell and everbody boring to heaven. In heaven, people will be allowed to sit on clouds, play harps, sing hymns and be at peace for eternity.

There will be no peace in Hell though...

Every day and night will be a party full of sex, drugs, alcohol and debauchery. You see, being dead already, everybody in Hell can do whatever they want without it messing them up. Ever wondered if you can down 10 bottles of jack daniels in a row and live? Well in Hell you'll have that opportunity.

Plus Dita Von Teese will be there.

So if anybody's interested in joining me in Hell, just pledge your soul to Satan now and receive not only eternal debauchery, but also a free parker pen!

Did I mention Dita Von Teese will be there?

 

[Dan4reason]

Christian believe in hell because there is scriptural references to this place. People who do not believe in Christ will be going to hell according to the bible.

 

[Thief]

One thing that a lot of people struggle with is this idea that a person could deserve eternal damnation. I've come across a number of followers of Abrahamic religions who believe in hell, are sympathetic of those who they believe will go to hell, but express that they cannot judge God's actions. In other words, they are more sympathetic than God seems to be.

But I want to ask people as individuals if they believe there is any act that makes a person deserve eternal punishment. This is a personal question. If you had the authority to condemn someone to this hell, which acts make a person deserve such a punishment. Please do not refer to scripture because the question isn't about what God does, but what you would feel is justice.

I personally would not send anyone to hell. Nobody deserves to be tortured so terribly for so long. If I could be so heartless or lack empathy to such an extent than I would be as bad or worse than the persons I condemn. Even the most damaged individual is capable of being healed. To throw them out is to not care, to give up on them. I'd try to help them, not torture them. That helps no-one.

This indicates you extent your loving spirit first.
bravo.

But doesn't heaven make choice?

If you somehow don't 'fit in'....can that be fixed?

Or..... are you 'fixed' as you leave this life?
Do we transform into what we really are?
Can we then be tolerated by all others?

 

[ellenjanuary]

You see if I was in charge, I'd send everybody interesting to Hell and everbody boring to heaven. In heaven, people will be allowed to sit on clouds, play harps, sing hymns and be at peace for eternity.

There will be no peace in Hell though...

Every day and night will be a party full of sex, drugs, alcohol and debauchery. You see, being dead already, everybody in Hell can do whatever they want without it messing them up. Ever wondered if you can down 10 bottles of jack daniels in a row and live? Well in Hell you'll have that opportunity.

Plus Dita Von Teese will be there.

So if anybody's interested in joining me in Hell, just pledge your soul to Satan now and receive not only eternal debauchery, but also a free parker pen!

Did I mention Dita Von Teese will be there?

That's good stuff. I'd agree, but Gwyneth Paltrow is too sweet to go there. Hmmmn. You make a good case. I'm gonna hafta commute.