Eternal Punishment or Annihilationism?

[shinydarkrai94]

I've noticed that there's a ton of discussion about this on YouTube. A lot of people get quite passionate about it. Eternal punishment(ists?) often associate annihilationism with universalism and reject it as a heresy, while annihilationists call their opponents cruel, heartless, etc and say that their doctrines are based upon pagan beliefs and will sometimes use other insults (one annihilationist I saw called people who disagreed with him "whores of Babylon"). Anyway, I wasn't sure so I did some research on it and debated my dad about it. If you wanna look up the videos, you can just YouTube "TheStinkingAtheist".

I haven't done a whole lot of research, but here are a couple things that I've found:

1 - Hell exists
2 - Hell very obviously burns forever
3 - The unsaved face eternal punishment

but then I realized a lot of things that made me favor annihilationism:

1 - In the NT, the Greek word for immortal is used only with the saved and God, never with the unsaved (to be fair, it's not used a lot, but interesting to note).
2 - The verse "fear not the one who can destroy the body, but the one who can destroy the body and soul in hell" at the minimum implies that God is able to destroy the soul. It makes you wonder why Jesus said specifically "in hell" rather than "in general" if the soul really is meant to last forever in hell.
3 - Hell is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah which is interesting since Sodom and Gomorrah is consumed.
4 - Eternal life and eternal punishment are contrasted often. If everyone has eternal life, then why is it contrasted with punishment unless the punishment is death? Or is eternal life some type of phrase meaning specifically, eternal bliss?
5 - The ONLY verse that I've ever heard anyone use (Matt Slick, Kyle Butt, etc) that actually supports (or seems to support) the soul burning in hell forever is Rev 14:9-11. This verse, from the context, definitely seems to be a finite punishment. First, Jesus is mentioned to be in the presence of those who are tortured which makes you wonder why he would spend eternity watching the unsaved tortured. This isn't the significant nor strong evidence, but it's significant nonetheless. Second, John very clearly seems to be quoting or paraphrasing Isaiah 34:10. Check it out for yourself, the verses have the same structure and use the same phrases. However, the context from Isaiah shows that Isaiah is describing a finite destruction. Some may bring up the argument that Aionos ton Aionon (used in Rev 14:9-11) means eternity, but in Revelations, it is used to mean a finite time (namely Rev 11:15 [read 1 Cor 15:23-26 for confirmation, Jesus does not rule for an infinite time on earth] and probably Rev 19:2-3 since the great whore is generally interpreted to be a city or institution). Also, the idea that John was paraphrasing the Old Testament is not implausible as Revelations is estimated to allude to the OT 518 times.


I remain agnostic on the issue but I lean towards Hell being eternal, souls being destroyed and then facing the eternal punishment - death.

One interesting thing that my dad brought up was the argument that in places such as Job, the devil tempted Job with eternal punishment, but this doesn't make sense if the soul is instantly consumed. It makes me wonder whether people face a finite punishment until Judgment day and then face another finite punishment until their soul is consumed or whether people don't face a punishment and are simply judged according to their sins at Judgment day. I haven't researched a lot on this. So anyway, comments? Questions? Disagreements?

 

[jtartar]

I've noticed that there's a ton of discussion about this on YouTube. A lot of people get quite passionate about it. Eternal punishment(ists?) often associate annihilationism with universalism and reject it as a heresy, while annihilationists call their opponents cruel, heartless, etc and say that their doctrines are based upon pagan beliefs and will sometimes use other insults (one annihilationist I saw called people who disagreed with him "whores of Babylon"). Anyway, I wasn't sure so I did some research on it and debated my dad about it. If you wanna look up the videos, you can just YouTube "TheStinkingAtheist".

I haven't done a whole lot of research, but here are a couple things that I've found:

1 - Hell exists
2 - Hell very obviously burns forever
3 - The unsaved face eternal punishment

but then I realized a lot of things that made me favor annihilationism:

1 - In the NT, the Greek word for immortal is used only with the saved and God, never with the unsaved (to be fair, it's not used a lot, but interesting to note).
2 - The verse "fear not the one who can destroy the body, but the one who can destroy the body and soul in hell" at the minimum implies that God is able to destroy the soul. It makes you wonder why Jesus said specifically "in hell" rather than "in general" if the soul really is meant to last forever in hell.
3 - Hell is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah which is interesting since Sodom and Gomorrah is consumed.
4 - Eternal life and eternal punishment are contrasted often. If everyone has eternal life, then why is it contrasted with punishment unless the punishment is death? Or is eternal life some type of phrase meaning specifically, eternal bliss?
5 - The ONLY verse that I've ever heard anyone use (Matt Slick, Kyle Butt, etc) that actually supports (or seems to support) the soul burning in hell forever is Rev 14:9-11. This verse, from the context, definitely seems to be a finite punishment. First, Jesus is mentioned to be in the presence of those who are tortured which makes you wonder why he would spend eternity watching the unsaved tortured. This isn't the significant nor strong evidence, but it's significant nonetheless. Second, John very clearly seems to be quoting or paraphrasing Isaiah 34:10. Check it out for yourself, the verses have the same structure and use the same phrases. However, the context from Isaiah shows that Isaiah is describing a finite destruction. Some may bring up the argument that Aionos ton Aionon (used in Rev 14:9-11) means eternity, but in Revelations, it is used to mean a finite time (namely Rev 11:15 [read 1 Cor 15:23-26 for confirmation, Jesus does not rule for an infinite time on earth] and probably Rev 19:2-3 since the great whore is generally interpreted to be a city or institution). Also, the idea that John was paraphrasing the Old Testament is not implausible as Revelations is estimated to allude to the OT 518 times.


I remain agnostic on the issue but I lean towards Hell being eternal, souls being destroyed and then facing the eternal punishment - death.

One interesting thing that my dad brought up was the argument that in places such as Job, the devil tempted Job with eternal punishment, but this doesn't make sense if the soul is instantly consumed. It makes me wonder whether people face a finite punishment until Judgment day and then face another finite punishment until their soul is consumed or whether people don't face a punishment and are simply judged according to their sins at Judgment day. I haven't researched a lot on this. So anyway, comments? Questions? Disagreements?

shinydarkrai94,
Please allow me to add a little to your argument.
First, can a person who has died be given either reward or punishment??? Consider Ecc 3:18-20, Ecc 9:5,6,10, All these scriptures tells us that a dead person knows nothing.
The word HELL is a corruption of the Grteek word Hades, and has the same meaning as the Hebrew word Sheol, which, by comparison with, Ps 16:10, with Acts 2:27,31, can easily be seen. Job even asked God for him to be hidden in the grave until God's wrath is passed, Job 14:13-16. There was no idea of punishment for sheol, to the Israelites.
Could a person be rightly condemned to everlasting torture for sins that he committed during a short lifetime on earth??? Notice that all God's ways are JUSTICE, Deut 32:4. God is mercifull and kind, ps 86:15.
If a person has paid for his crimes why should he be punished further??? Notice that the Bible says that the wages that sin pays is death, Rom 6:23. So, if a person has died he has paid the ultimate price for his sin. The Bible even says that when a person dies, he is FREED from his sin, Rom 6:7. Why would he be punished further???
The Bible says over and over again that the punishment for unrepentent sinners is EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION, not punishment, 2Thess 1:6-10.
John 3:16, which is called The Gospel in Miniature, says the same thing.

 

[jonadab]

1 - Hell exists
2 - Hell very obviously burns forever
3 - The unsaved face eternal punishment

Hi shinydarkrai94,

The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohl′ and its Greek equivalent hai′des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge′en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain? No.

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)​

I hope this helps.​