This.
My dad worked on a pig farm and he mentioned that stunning a pig can be really hard and not at all what it's made out to be. He tried three times this once and it didn't work. He was seasoned by this time; had been at this job years.
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EU Court upholds Belgian ban on kosher and halal slaughter
- Thread starter Altfish
- Start date
My dad worked on a pig farm and he mentioned that stunning a pig can be really hard and not at all what it's made out to be. He tried three times this once and it didn't work. He was seasoned by this time; had been at this job years.
They're conscious while their throat is slit open and for a few seconds after. No reason for them to have to experience that.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
LOL!! The chicken running around has nothing to do with pain. At that point it is an autonomous reaction. Yes, sometimes animals are not properly stunned. I have never denied that. But in halal and kosher slaughter the animal is always conscious and in great distress. I will point out again that since this is a fait acompli the burden of proof is now upon those opposing this ruling.
Yes...indeed.
I guess this law has the aim to make sure the animal suffers the least possible...by trying to respect people's religious traditions too.
@Subduction Zone My post wasn't meant to be funny.
It is clear to me that many here have never seen kosher and non-kosher slaughter actually being done. As someone who has seen them, there is no doubt in my mind which is more humane. Kosher slaughter is far more humane. But, some won’t accept that. Fine. But to prohibit something you don’t understand (such as kosher slaughter) simply for profits or animus against religion is repugnant.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sorry, I thought that you were joking about the "evidence" that some use. I guess I have to remind you that the plural of anecdote is not "evidence".
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
What one sees through prejudiced eyes is not evidence. Studies and numbers are needed.
We keep hearing complaints that stunning isn't properly done.
As though religious slaughtering is presumed always competent.
Figures
You think a bloke whose work involves stunning animals isn't evidence about things that involve stunning animals? Where do you think people take their stats about this from, thin air? They take them from the people who stun the animals.
Also, maybe you're not aware, but misuse of the funny rating is a rule violation.
Heyo
Veteran Member
"An advocate general, Gerard Hogan, said in September that the CJEU should strike down the Belgian ban. He cited that the 2009 E.U. law that animals should be stunned before being slaughtered has an exception for religious animal slaughter—an exception that Hogan said exemplified the E.U.’s belief in freedom of religion." - from the article
I think that exemplifies the core of the discussion. The question if stunning is more humane or not is a side show. The real debate is whether religions are exceptional and deserve privileges is what it's about.
A chance that a more humane option doesn't work doesn't mean that the more inhumane alternative should be used instead...
It's not reasonable to say prohibiting religious slaughter
is about profit or repugnance.
And only believers understand it? Nah.
We've been given no studies to validate your argument.
I won't take it on faith in the greater authority of believers.
It appears that he didn't intend it that way.
And I see that it's now removed.
All is good....I hope.
Altfish
Veteran Member
Hmm
Glad I re-posted this.
I have great concerns about ritual killing of animals; but I also have many concerns about commercial slaughterhouses
In the end I come down on the side of stunning.
In the UK the religious market is about 10% but more is carried out and just put on the 'normal' meat market.
Personally, I would like meat that has been ritually slaughtered to be clearly labelled as such, then you can make an informed decision.
Glad I re-posted this.
I have great concerns about ritual killing of animals; but I also have many concerns about commercial slaughterhouses
In the end I come down on the side of stunning.
In the UK the religious market is about 10% but more is carried out and just put on the 'normal' meat market.
Personally, I would like meat that has been ritually slaughtered to be clearly labelled as such, then you can make an informed decision.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I apologized and removed the funny rating immediately after you compalined. I seriously thought that you were making a joke since as evidence goes that was pathetic. It is better to think that someone was making a joke than to think that they could not reason in my thinking.
As to your father witnessing botched stunnings I never denied them. I said that you need statistics to show that those botched stunnings are worse than animals being conscious of the end of their lives in every single instance with halal and kosher slaughter. And to be fair a proper record of botched kosher and halal slaughters has to be included too.
Your father was obviously affected by the failed stunnings. Don't you think that there is the equivalent among halal and kosher butchers that are affected by the botched work using their techniques?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I would qualify that with "doesn't work 100% of the time . . ." And I agree. Using the most humane method is always the best choice. If kosher and halal slaughter could be shown to be more humane I would be advocating for that.
I wasn't making any argument that kosher/halal slaughter is better, you just read that in there. I was just making the case that the other alternative is not any better in a lot of respects and to hold it up as some kind of standard seems bizarre to me when it can be and often is not as great a method as folks like to think.
Secret Chief
Vetted Member
The reality of abbatoirs is that killing is not humane. Disagreeing over methods by anyone who eats meat is hypocritical or, at best, based on ignorance. It just seems like attempted political/religious point scoring (eg the Daily Mail being outraged at Halal slaughter - like they give a ****).
"Each day around 100,000 cattle, sheep and pigs are slaughtered for food in the UK, as well as 2 million chickens a day. No one ever asks whether these animals are being slaughtered humanely. Sadly, often they are not, largely because animals are hustled through modern abattoirs at such great speeds that it is very difficult to safeguard their welfare.
...
CIWF Trust believes that one of the principal problems (which will be referred to at various stages of this report) for cattle, sheep and pigs and for poultry is the danger of animals regaining consciousness during bleeding-out."
- Compassion in World Farming report.
https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/5161334/animal_welfare_problems_in_uk_slaughterhouses_2001.pdf
"Each day around 100,000 cattle, sheep and pigs are slaughtered for food in the UK, as well as 2 million chickens a day. No one ever asks whether these animals are being slaughtered humanely. Sadly, often they are not, largely because animals are hustled through modern abattoirs at such great speeds that it is very difficult to safeguard their welfare.
...
CIWF Trust believes that one of the principal problems (which will be referred to at various stages of this report) for cattle, sheep and pigs and for poultry is the danger of animals regaining consciousness during bleeding-out."
- Compassion in World Farming report.
https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/5161334/animal_welfare_problems_in_uk_slaughterhouses_2001.pdf
Nah, I don't buy this demonization of us carnivores.
I'm in favor of killing them & eating them.
But I say it should be done in a manner a free of agony as practical.
I don't even fundamentally object to Jewish or Islamic methods.
But if there's a better way, I'd prefer it.
Sorry to be that guy but...why slaughter animals in the first place? It's completely unnecessary to most of our survival. It's just a way of satisfying our taste buds.