European Human Rights Court Backs Sharia Blasphemy Law

[Vouthon]

I don't know enough to have an educated opinion about the situations and attitudes in Europe.

But wasn't your time for the last 20 years or so?
Tom

You mean the Blairites and Camerons?

No, there is a better model than the stale old 'third way politics' - namely, a model bred and born in response to rightwing populism.

Consider the SNP in Scotland. Centre-left, moderate populists - with an international, pro-EU agenda yet using the language of nationhood.

Or indeed the Peoples Vote movement in the UK that I just mentioned - a grassroots, cross-party movement that is gathering speed and managed to hold the largest rally in British history since the 2003 Iraq war protests, just earlier this month (myself in their midst). Luckily, Remainers in the UK have something like 70%-80% (except our dear @Rival ) of the youth behind us, in other words we have the future.

 

[Father Heathen]

I haven't suggested that the answer is Marxism or anarchism or extreme identity politics or whatever a "radical fringe left" means. Who are these radical fringe leftists? Can you identify some prominent examples for me?

Rather, I advocate a broad alliance of centrists - centre-left and centre-right - as the anti-Brexit movement here in the UK is doing, uniting Conservatives, Labour politicians, Greens, Scottish Nationalists and Liberal Democrats in common cause.

The radical left here in Britain would, I suppose, be Corbyn supporters ('Momentum' as they call their movement) and I am not a supporter of their political programme or general approach to policymaking or political action.

So then why did you take issue with my initial statement?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But how is valid critique and scrutiny a form of denigration? Nothing should be considered beyond reproach simply due to mob mentality (and the fear thereof).

Well, they obviously don't agree that what she said is a valid critique. Actually, America is very weird in that we have such a wide-ranging free speech law that allows all kind of hate groups and kooks to run wild. Pretty much every other first world nation limits extremist speech by having hate speech laws and such. We're also weird in thinking that gun ownership is a right. But then we think everyone else should be like us and they're the weird ones.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't know enough to have an educated opinion about the situations and attitudes in Europe.

But wasn't your time for the last 20 years or so?
Tom

The EU is nothing but a banking union...disguised as "political entity". Banks' interests come first. States' Sovereignty comes second...

 

[Vouthon]

So then why did you take issue with my initial statement?

Because, while there are undoubtedly extremists on the left-wing or liberal side (the words are not synonymous here in Europe, I should note), the instability, factionalism, violence and erosion of the rule of law in numerous jurisdictions has arisen overwhelmingly from the action of right-wing populists.

Orban in Hungary, PiS in Poland, Putinism in Russia, Erdogan in Turkey, Trumpism in America, that new nutcase in Brazil...how long is a peace of string?

As such, while Momentum are hardly conducive to civil dialogue here in the UK, they are a minor source of trouble compared to the damage being caused by people like the right-wing terrorists who murdered MP Jo Cox or have been threatening violence against pro-European MPs (declaring them "enemies of the people" and "saboteurs"), in tandem with the economic damage that Brexiteers are causing (the UK has already lost 2% GDP and we haven't even properly left the EU yet).

In light of this, the centrist movements I mentioned are predominantly rallying together - moderate conservatives, leftists and nationalists - in response to the threat from the radical right.

It's not a case of right vs left, liberal vs conservative.

It's a case of moderate conservative, leftist, liberal and nationalist defending what needs to be defended from an onslaught by right-wing populists hellbent on a reactionary agenda that is poisoning our economic, political and social life.

A bunch of Karl Marx-reading university lecturers are as nothing compared to the menacing, very present danger posed by Putinism, Orbanism, Erdoganism, Trumpism and so on.

 

[Father Heathen]

Well, they obviously don't agree that what she said is a valid critique. Actually, America is very weird in that we have such a wide-ranging free speech law that allows all kind of hate groups and kooks to run wild. Pretty much every other first world nation limits extremist speech by having hate speech laws and such. We're also weird in thinking that gun ownership is a right. But then we think everyone else should be like us and they're the weird ones.

When people say irrational and unsubstantiated things (such a bigotry), they should be openly examined and countered with rational and substantiated rebuttals so that everyone sees and fully understands why such notions are garbage. Trying to hide it under the rug with censorship isn't the solution.

 

[Father Heathen]

Because, while there are undoubtedly extremists on the left-wing or liberal side (the words are not synonymous here in Europe, I should note), the instability, factionalism, violence and erosion of the rule of law in numerous jurisdictions has arisen overwhelmingly from the action of right-wing populists.

Orban in Hungary, PiS in Poland, Putinism in Russia, Erdogan in Turkey, Trumpism in America, that new nutcase in Brazil...how long is a peace of string?

As such, while Momentum are hardly conducive to civil dialogue here in the UK, they are a minor source of trouble compared to the damage being caused by people like the right-wing terrorists who murdered MP Jo Cox or have been threatening violence against pro-European MPs (declaring them "enemies of the people" and "saboteurs"), in tandem with the economic damage that Brexiteers are causing (the UK has already lost 2% GDP and we haven't even properly left the EU yet).

In light of this, the centrist movements I mentioned are predominantly rallying together - moderate conservatives, leftists and nationalists - in response to the threat from the radical right.

It's not a case of right vs left, liberal vs conservative.

It's a case of moderate conservative, leftist, liberal and nationalist defending what needs to be defended from an onslaught by right-wing populists hellbent on a reactionary agenda that is poisoning our economic, political and social life.

A bunch of Karl Marx-reading university lecturers are as nothing compared to the menacing, very present danger posed by Putinism, Orbanism, Erdoganism, Trumpism and so on.

I still don't understand how my statement "Do things really need to be one extreme or the other, though? Can't we find a sane, rational balance?" conflicts with this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

When people say irrational and unsubstantiated things (such a bigotry), they should be openly examined and countered with rational and substantiated rebuttals so that everyone sees and fully understands why such notions are garbage. Trying to hide it under the rug with censorship isn't the solution.

Unfortunately, the former rarely happens and you can't reason people out of irrational beliefs because they weren't reasoned into it in the first place. I'm disillusioned with America's approach to free speech because the problem just festers and the state has its hands tied to do anything about it since they had behind "free speech" (while laughing at us). Meanwhile the European model seems to be working better. Canada is doing pretty well in that regard, as well. Meanwhile America is falling apart.

 

[Father Heathen]

Unfortunately, the former rarely happens and you can't reason people out of irrational beliefs because they weren't reasoned into it in the first place. I'm disillusioned with America's approach to free speech because the problem just festers and the state has its hands tied to do anything about it since they had behind "free speech" (while laughing at us).

Well, of course you're not likely convince such people to come to their senses, but you can certainly impact others who could potentially be swayed or influenced by their words. It's ignorance that feeds bigotry, whereas education starves it. Censorship only encases that ignorance in a bubble.

 

[Vouthon]

I still don't understand how my statement "Do things really need to be one extreme or the other, though? Can't we find a sane, rational balance?" conflicts with this.

Because I reject the idea that both sides are equally as "extreme". One side has gone off-the-rails in recent years in a way many would never have foreseen.

In Britain, this is literally going to ruin many, many lives given the impact on our economy.

I cannot, therefore, draw moral equivalence between a Hard Brexiteer like Jacob Rees-Mogg and the likes of Jeremy Corbyn, in terms of the danger each of them poses to our nation.

 

[Sunstone]

Notice I said "If this is what liberalism is becoming..." I highly doubt Democrats in the United States would support a Sharia blasphemy law. But if they start defending something like this, you can be damn sure I *will* vote for Trump.

Relax. Polling shows 80% or more of Dems do not support the far, far left PC agenda. If you think they do, you're probably a victim of misinformation and propaganda from the right.

 

[Father Heathen]

Because I reject the idea that both sides are equally as "extreme". One side has gone off-the-rails in recent years in a way many would never have foreseen.

I wasn't implying that both sides are equally extreme, though. Trampling free speech however is an extreme, and my response was to Farnsworth who suggested that he would react to such an extreme by embracing another extreme (Trump).

 

[Vouthon]

I wasn't implying that both sides are equally extreme, though. Trampling free speech however is an extreme, and my response was to Farnsworth who suggested that he would react to such an extreme by embracing another extreme (Trump).

In that case, I reckon that I may have misunderstood what you were saying.

Apologies on my part.

 

[Father Heathen]

In that case, I reckon that I may have misunderstood what you were saying.

Apologies on my part.

None needed. It's all good.

 

[Yerda]

"Human rights court"? Isn't freedom of speech a human right?

Freedom of expression is protected under the Universal Declaration and of course by the ECHR itself.

And how is denouncing human rights violations (i.e. religious tyranny, child rape, etc.) itself a human rights violation?

She was prosecuted under the Austrian criminal code.

How did Europe become such a mewling milquetoast doormat so eager to sell out its own values?

Sometimes the wrong balance is struck, as in this case, when we have to negotiate between two central values. The law is a messy and complicated thing just as it is in the USA.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, of course you're not likely convince such people to come to their senses, but you can certainly impact others who could potentially be swayed or influenced by their words. It's ignorance that feeds bigotry, whereas education starves it. Censorship only encases that ignorance in a bubble.

Well, then what good does that do when you still have the true believers running around murdering innocent people and violent extremist movements radicalizing people online? You're not proposing a solution. It's just more of the same. It's not those on the fence who commit atrocities.

 

[Yerda]

Another HUGE blow for free speech, and a huge win for anti-secularism and victimhood culture.

On this we are agreed.

 

[Father Heathen]

Well, then what good does that do when you still have the true believers running around murdering innocent people and violent extremist movements radicalizing people online? You're not proposing a solution. It's just more of the same. It's not those on the fence who commit atrocities.

How is censorship a solution? It's bombs and bullets and not words that kill and maim. They use the push for censorship to paint themselves as victims and martyrs. They take it as validation.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Roll on Brexit.

Sorry to be tardy to the party, but the ECHR is not an EU institution.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

A good judgement.
Talk like that can provoke, even incite acts of hatred, violence and terrorism, Imo.

Good for the court.

This sort of thinking makes it sound as though Muslims generally will react to this sort of thing with violence. How about we blame the terrorists for inciting acts of terrorism and their supporters for inciting it?

Blaming it on the rest of us is akin to removing the Muslim agency and makes it sound like they cannot react any other way.

Silencing people for fear of offending Muslims is allowing Islamic terrorism to work. The Charlie Hebdo cartoonists will probably be spinning in their graves just now.