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Evangelists: Free Will?

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Right. So I've heard recently, by some Evangelist aquaintances of mine, that they do not believe in free will.
They do not believe in free will because everyone is evil, controlled by the devil, so they have no choice really in their actions.

Also, apparently all of time is predetermined? So that those who are 'saved' were always going to be saved because, yet again, there is no free will.

I would very much like to hear from Evangelists here if they share these ideas or not. I've never heard of it until today and am rather astounded. It seems completely contradictory to Christianity...?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Right. So I've heard recently, by some Evangelist aquaintances of mine, that they do not believe in free will.
They do not believe in free will because everyone is evil, controlled by the devil, so they have no choice really in their actions.

Also, apparently all of time is predetermined? So that those who are 'saved' were always going to be saved because, yet again, there is no free will.

I would very much like to hear from Evangelists here if they share these ideas or not. I've never heard of it until today and am rather astounded. It seems completely contradictory to Christianity...?

What you are talking about is Calvin's influence on Protestant denominations...
This is the dominant belief amongst Protestant Christians.
it is not restricted to evangelicals.


How ever I believe it to be totally mis-founded.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
What you are talking about is Calvin's influence on Protestant denominations...
This is the dominant belief amongst Protestant Christians.
it is not restricted to evangelicals.


How ever I believe it to be totally mis-founded.

Yes, me too.
I've had most of my knowledge of Christianity come from Catholicism and Anglicanism so it was very surprising to me. I do know something of Calvin and his protestant influences. I don't like him one bit.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
Many teach that man or woman either has no free-will, or limited
amounts of it. But...the Bible teaches differently in that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God.

Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place)
to save every soul who "fears God and works righteousness" (Acts 10:34-35).
That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men & women would be saved "in
Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption
(Eph. 3:10-11). Not...who would be saved or not....

God also determined that man & woman would have free-will, the ability and
responsibility to choose to obey Him (Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt.
11:28).

God did not predestine the man or woman (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - Acts 10:34-35;
Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for your response Kepi it is good to get this perspective!
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Even when I was a Christian, I found the concept of predestination horrible, and completely rejected it.

However, Calvinists, and other predesitinationists, bring up some hard-to-reconcile points:
1. In the Christian religion, God's the one who created you like you are: he made your nature, whether you are more skeptical, or more likely to believe. He chose where and when you were born, and who your parents were. Basically, your nature and nuture, the two things considered to form a unique human being, were determined by God. Accordingly, right off the bat, some people are either by nature more likely to believe, or by nuture, given greater opportunity to believe.
2. There are a couple of pretty suspicious Bible verses:
Acts 13:48: When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Rom 8:29-30: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

And then we have this huge passage:
Rom 9:10-24 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


I mean, how do you explain all that? The fact that a) God decides basically who we are, and b) it sounds like we can't accept God, unless he gives us the first nudge
 

DDK732

New Member
I have been studying a William Lane Craig apologetic course recently about the argument of evil in the world. In essence, he explains that a theoretical perfect world without evil and suffering would not allow free will. Basically, since God gave us free will it causes the possibility of pain and suffering in the world. This is a popular argument that if God is all loving and all powerful, he could eliminate evil. But, to do so he would have to eliminate free will and we would then all be "puppets" programmed to be all good. The Christian argument allows for evil in the world because of free will and since God is eternal, all loving, all knowing and all powerful, evil could ultimately be used for fulfilling His purposes of good. So, if you believe that God exists and is all loving, all knowing and all powerful you have to believe in free will. If not, the world would be perfect and since we can all agree that it's not without evil we must say that we have free will.

 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for your explanation DDK. I've heard of the Apologetics before but don't know much about them. I'll look into that.
 

DDK732

New Member
I was raised in an agnostic household and had many questions about Christianity. I looked into apologetics and it kick started my faith in Christ (mainly because it was able to answers all my questions and give some higher understanding of Christianity). I highly recomend William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel, Ravi Zacharias and C.S. Lewis.
 

swillia9

Member
Right. So I've heard recently, by some Evangelist aquaintances of mine, that they do not believe in free will.
They do not believe in free will because everyone is evil, controlled by the devil, so they have no choice really in their actions.

Also, apparently all of time is predetermined? So that those who are 'saved' were always going to be saved because, yet again, there is no free will.

I would very much like to hear from Evangelists here if they share these ideas or not. I've never heard of it until today and am rather astounded. It seems completely contradictory to Christianity...?

This is interesting as I have not heard this debate for predestination. I am a Nazarene and do not believe in reformed theologies predestination teaching. I believe that God has predestined those who make a willful choice to follow Christ as Lord are predestined to take on the likeness of Christ. I believe in the teachings of John Wesley that God provides us with a prevenient grace. That is, that the human race at the point of creation was made in God's likeness and included the ability to choose between right and wrong and makes humans morally responsible and through the fall of Adam they became depraved so that they cannot now turn and prepare themselves by their own natural strength and works to faith and calling upon God. I believe that the grace of God through Christ is freely bestowed upon all people, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness, believe on Jesus Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin, and follow good works pleasing and acceptable in His sight. Reformed theology teaches a grace that is irresistible and when you are called you cannot resist that call to repentance, but I follow Wesley and Arminius that say grace is resistible and that we can choose not to repent, but that the prevenient grace God offers continues despite of and continues to call us even until death.
Hope that is clear. If you have questions or need clarity please ask.
 

swillia9

Member
I was raised in an agnostic household and had many questions about Christianity. I looked into apologetics and it kick started my faith in Christ (mainly because it was able to answers all my questions and give some higher understanding of Christianity). I highly recomend William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel, Ravi Zacharias and C.S. Lewis.

Love Strobel and Lewis.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
My childhood church was almost wiped out by Calvinists... I have a dim view of their beliefs...
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I have seen that the Bible seems to say that predestination and free will work together. That would be my take.

Jesus said: My sheep hear my voice. I will lose none of these my father has given me."
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe that God has predestined those who make a willful choice to follow Christ as Lord are predestined to take on the likeness of Christ.

Yes, what does this mean? Predestined means no matter what, this will happen...willfully...

And does it mean that God chooses before hand who will and will not 'willfully choose to follow Christ as Lord'?
 

swillia9

Member
2 Peter 3:9 states: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

So predestination does NOT mean that God chooses who will or will not come to Him. Because this very scripture tells me that God's desire is that no one should face eternal separation from Him, but that all might come to repentance and know Him. This passage tells me that God has chosen us all before the creation of the world and has called us all unto salvation through Christ, but it is up to us to heed that call of grace unto repentance. God has already chosen, or destined, us ALL to receive His gift of grace, but it is up to us to make the decision if we want that grace that is constantly available to all who will accept it. If anything we all are predestined to be offered grace before and always, but we must not resist it but accept it willingly and freely. God already choose us, but we must choose Him.

So no God does not choose beforehand who will or will not choose to follow Christ because that would not be freewill as the Scriptures teach it. This is not to be confused with divine foreknowledge.

If you read John Wesley on the issue of predestination it makes sense...sort of, he uses the old English, but this site is a copy of his sermon: Sermon 58 - On Predestination

And probably a good evaluation is in this journal article from the Wesleyan Theological Society 1972 on page 25. And also in the 1992 article starting on page 93.

Anything you find from a Wesleyan theology perspective will give you a better understanding. The New Beacon Bible Commentary on Romans 1-8 would also be a good source to study the issue.

I hope this helps some, I'm still in school and haven't had theology I & II yet so I just gave you the basics because this is a huge issue and some good scholarly opinions on the matter.

Let me know if you have anymore questions and I will do my best to try and make it understandable.
 

James C

New Member
Right. So I've heard recently, by some Evangelist aquaintances of mine, that they do not believe in free will.
They do not believe in free will because everyone is evil, controlled by the devil, so they have no choice really in their actions.

Also, apparently all of time is predetermined? So that those who are 'saved' were always going to be saved because, yet again, there is no free will.

I would very much like to hear from Evangelists here if they share these ideas or not. I've never heard of it until today and am rather astounded. It seems completely contradictory to Christianity...?

these idea's are not true and its is even said in the bible that god made us with free will the devil may influince us be he does not controll us god can influance us but we have are free will so :no: i dont believe that we have no free will
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
these idea's are not true and its is even said in the bible that god made us with free will the devil may influince us be he does not controll us god can influance us but we have are free will so :no: i dont believe that we have no free will

Which part of the Bible is it in? I recently found out that most Protestants reject the apocrypha.
 
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