Even if you removed Islam, Judaism, and Christianity you'd still have fanaticism

[shunyadragon]

Correoation does not eq7al causation. Are religions responsible for those issues, or were short sighted, venal humans going to create those situations anyway, and religion is just the easiest ad hoc rationalisation for why they occur?

As noted elsewhere, atheists are just as capable of getting involved in such issues.

Careful, I did not say 'cause' I said contribute significantly, and that is well documented in history that these ancient religions waged war on those that believe differently. They also preach an exclusiveness of the sense of community and sense of belonging that separates themselves from the rest of humanity. This is clearly inherited from the tribalism of us versus them grounded in their scripture.

I did not exclude atheism from the problem, but on the scale of human history atheists are a distinct minority. Even World War II the war was fought primarily by theists in the Axis powers and Russia despite the atheism of their leaders. Actually in recent history Nationalism has been a strong motivation for wars.

By the way the Holocaust, and the centuries of ethnic and religious cleansing of Jews and persecution was primarily motivated by Christianity in Europe, and their enthusiastic participation in Hitler's pogroms against the Jews. I am not saying that all Christians participated nor supported, but the support was wide spread and rooted in the history of Christianity and scripture.

It is not only Islam that can be blamed for the contemporary violence and division in the world. The following is an example that ancient tribalism still holds sway in the Christian West.

From:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/07/poli...ansas-candidate-barbarism-comments/index.html

GOP candidate in Kansas: 'Outside of Western civilization, there is only barbarism'

A Republican congressional candidate in a Kansas race Democrats are targeting in November told an audience at a party meeting this month that "outside of Western civilization there is only barbarism."

The comments from State Sen. Steve Fitzgerald, a candidate seeking the Republican nomination in the race to replace retiring Rep. Lynn Jenkins, came at a July 2 meeting of the Leavenworth County Republican Party. During his more-than-30-minute speech, Fitzgerald lamented the fact that people believe "Western civilization is the problem," argued that Christendom is "under attack" and doubled down on his previous statement that Planned Parenthood is worse than a Nazi concentration camp.
"We are being told that Western civilization is the problem in the world," Fitzgerald said, according to video provided by a Democratic operative. "Outside of Western civilization there is only barbarism."
He added: "Our Judeo-Christian ethic is what is civilization. And that is what is under attack here and abroad. It also goes by a different name. Christendom. It's under attack. And even speaking about it can bring you under attack. It has brought me under attack."

I do believe these ancient religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not have the healing power to resolve these issues of violence, conflict and division in humanity, because they are intimately involved, and a part of the problem

 

[Mock Turtle]

I see this a lot here. EVOLUTION is a big giant invisible elephant in the room. There is no separation or magic gap of sudden magically we became rational. This is itself a philosophical hold over from pre Darwin thinking even. The gap is tremendous between on the one hand "evolution" is fact from modern science and we are totally rationally separate from history. It's creationism gap in reverse is all.

Sorry, have a look at other animal species (in detail) and the social lives of these. There is good evidence of primitive morality in such communities, so it seems much more likely that rational behaviour and morality are evolved characteristics. Given the fact that many of these have been around millions of years.

 

[David T]

To my knowledge, there's no evidence of anything like that ever happening. There is historical evidence, in the abolition of legal slavery and the current trend to treat women as equal in spirit to men, that religion couldn't promote these moral advances nor could it retard them.

Are you proposing that religion is independent from evolution? I would like to know how that's even possible. Just like science can't be itself independent from evolution. Or is there a something other than evolution determining evolution?

 

[David T]

Sorry, have a look at other animal species (in detail) and the social lives of these. There is good evidence of primitive morality in such communities so it seems much more likely that rational behaviour and morality are evolved characteristics. Given the fact that many of these have been around millions of years.

That's what I said is religion independent from evolution somehow? Is science magically independent from evolution somehow? Is this discussion independent from evolution?

 

[Mock Turtle]

That's what I said is religion independent from evolution somehow? Is science magically independent from evolution somehow? Is this discussion independent from evolution?

This could be said for all behaviour - good or bad - like slavery, torture, etc. is that sensible? We no doubt have evolutionary traits though.

 

[joe1776]

Well actually... you would do well to remember world history does not start and end in the US. Slavery was banned in the British Empire long before the US, because of primarily Christian arguments and activism. There's also a large technological component to social progress, as well as ideological. Some argue that social progress is only a facet of economic and technological advance, that social progress will never happen without an underlying change of the sirt. It's certainky a historical fact that social progress and technological progress séem to occur together, although at some level it becones a chicken/egg argument.

Christians are humans. We humans have consciences. So, you can't jump to the conclusion that the abolition of slavery in a nation that is predominately Christian was because of Christian teachings and not a conscience-driven moral advance. This is particularly true since their Bible contains more than a hundred quotes on slavery and none condemn the practice.

The USA is 75% Christian. Do you think the drive for the equality of women in the USA is also due to Christian teachings?

 

[Mox]

.

What would you see as a clearly true narrative?

How about empirical evidence derived fact?

You know, objective factual information.

Seems clear and true enough for all practical intents and purposes, to me.

Any narrative based SOLELY on fact, is what I consider, true.

All is else is false or as good as false.

 

[Spiderman]

I agree!

However, the Qu'ran and Bible stir up much hypocrisy, pride, self-righteousness, bigotry, and feelings of being superior to others, with much calls to hatred, bloodshed, and violence, that are "the will of God".

When a person believes they are doing God's will by killing Idolators, unbelievers, and infidels, that adds fuel to fallen human nature, and becomes toxic to many of the people who cherish and follow those " sacred texts", which dehumanize those who disagree.

 

[joe1776]

Are you proposing that religion is independent from evolution? I would like to know how that's even possible. Just like science can't be itself independent from evolution. Or is there a something other than evolution determining evolution?

I don't understand why you think evolution in some way supports your argument. I can't even make a stab at what you might mean.

 

[Spiderman]

Yes, Islamic governments and Theocracies do much "brainwashing" dehumanizing, and oppression of an entire gender, which becomes as ugly and bigoted as Nazism in more ways than one.

I can think of many Islamic Theocracies that do this. How many Christian Theocracies in our current world do this?

I argue with Christians more than I argue with Muslims, and often point out the errors in the Bible, but I see such threatening dark-aged behavior a lot more in Islam.

 

[David T]

This could be said for all behaviour - good or bad - like slavery, torture, etc. is that sensible? We no doubt have evolutionary traits though.

Of course. It's a bit like the Genesis story. The charm of the story isn't the intro which most people get lost in outerspace. That's the debate of creationism vs everyone else. The heart of the story is the eating of the apple. In order to understand it you have to see it as it's articulated originally. Otherwise you are filtering it through 20,000 years or so of history exactly like modern creationists. I might say if creationists are doing that, they obviously emperically have demonstrated absolutely zero understanding of nature why do we default and imagine they are genesis and Bible experts in any fashion?, there is Zero evidence of that being true but yet they are treated as such in counter arguments.

 

[Spiderman]

What really bugs me about Islam is the hypocrisy and ignorance I see regarding it.

It is fine to point out Donald Trump's errors and errors of right wing politicians, and those errors should be pointed out.

But I can point out obvious calls to hatred, violence, and bigotry in the Qu'ran, that is far worse than anything Trump says, and the people that attack Trump often defend it! It never ceases to amaze me!

 

[David T]

I don't understand why you think evolution in some way supports your argument. I can't even make a stab at what you might mean.

there you go. So human thought is magically independent from evolution? Human thought is magically determining evolution? Lots of magic gaps between narrative and actual I would say.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Of course. It's a bit like the Genesis story. The charm of the story isn't the intro which most people get lost in outerspace. That's the debate of creationism vs everyone else. The heart of the story is the eating of the apple. In order to understand it you have to see it as it's articulated originally. Otherwise you are filtering it through 20,000 years or so of history exactly like modern creationists. I might say if creationists are doing that, they obviously emperically have demonstrated absolutely zero understanding of nature why do we default and imagine they are genesis and Bible experts in any fashion?, there is Zero evidence of that being true but yet they are treated as such in counter arguments.

But why initiate such myths when morality was obviously in evidence. Why not just go another route that didn't rely on myths that eventually would be seen as such and ignored?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

True about humans. If you got rid the Abrahamic religions you wouldn't get rid of terrorism. But I do believe that the Abrahamics lend themselves to rationalizing such things somewhat more than most other religions. You really can't hold them up Buddhism or Taoism, although both religions have their militants.

I think the rationalization tends to come from any human being or human group that takes an ailment in society and makes it into an extremity in the event where hopeless is the foundation of survival. For example let use the Palestinians for example. Many tie their survival with the loss of land. The loss of culture or person and so, when one feels unjustly done, some may use culture or religion as a means to draw the will to get their point across. So for many that see the Palestinian emotion behind the actions we forget the multi-faceted pieces that the people draw to: memories, culture, foods, herds of animals, laughter, time etc. You take all that away from a person and they become hopeless. Give them religion and a misinterpretation of certain verses and with the right chemistry you can create a monster more terrifying than anything on this earth.

Convince enough people who are helpless and hopeless that such and such are the cause of their troubles (even if such and such aren't directly responsible) they will see such and such as an immortal enemy.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

There have been atheist terrorists. Communists for the most part, but various others as well. Fanaticism isn't limited tobthe religious, and certainly not limited to any one religion. For various reasons, though, religion is the cause or given reason for much fanaticism. Of course, like most extreme events, the truth tends to be more complex and nuanced.

True but for the many that are glued to television and are sheep when it comes to news terrorism is synonymous with Islam.

 

[David T]

But why initiate such myths when morality was obviously in evidence. Why not just go another route that didn't rely on myths that eventually would be seen as such and ignored?

Why did Newton create the myth about time? Why didn't they go straight to Einstein? Whom BTW is not original at all he said so himself.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

All false narratives are potentially harmful and should be deleted.

Religions (all of them) are certainly not the only false narratives that can be used to brainwash people and control them.

Look no further than the Fox news network or 1940s Nazi propaganda for classic non religious examples.

Well to you religions are false but religions by themselves are not historically what causes people to perform deadly acts. I do not think specific class or political parties themselves is what causes people to be terrorist.

 

[Mox]

Well to you religions are false but religions by themselves are not historically what causes people to perform deadly acts. I do not think specific class or political parties themselves is what causes people to be terrorist.

I didn't make any such claim. So...ok.

 

[Mox]

Well to you religions are false

To me and any objective person who relies heavily on demonstratably factual information for the basis of their world view.