Ever notice anything about this forum?

[Wombat]

But we do have creationists here, and at times, several of them. So it's not like we don't get creationists, it's just that we seem to get really, really, really bad ones.

Perhaps................it is because..........they just haven't had time...............

to evolve?

 

[Thief]

Life and existence are what they are. We atheists lack the power to "refuse" to let God exist if it turns out that he does, and you Theists lack the power to truly create one if there is none.

Create God?....got that backwards don't you?

You're fully entitled to believe that, as you put it, there is more to life than chemistry. I happen to agree, but not due to any belief in God. Life is also about choices, moral values, empathy and making something valid out of what is basically a chaotic existence.

And that is the point....a valid spiritual life.

Some people might see either the need for or the footprints of a God in there, and that is fine. But I fail to see the point in insisting in telling us disbelievers that no, we are wrong, there must be one.

It's not a game of who's right or wrong.

Tell him to take a number and enter the line. We will speak with him when his turn comes. Until them, do as you please, believe or don't believe, but please understand that no one has a duty to agree with you about that matter.

This paragraph is truly the sum of it.

Take number and wait in line?

Is it not the other way around?

And it's not duty...or anything else that promotes belief in God.

Lack if faith ends in dust.
If you truly agree that life is more than chemistry.....
you will find yourself waiting in line...to talk to God,

Or you could circumvent the line.....pray.

 

[LuisDantas]

Could you please use the Quote function consistently? It beats that odd habit of using red for highlights by a mile.

Create God?....got that backwards don't you?

Maybe there is at least one exception, but even a cursory glance at the history of human beliefs shows that they are usually human creations. Far as I can tell, they all are.

And that is the point....a valid spiritual life.

Believe it or else, God is quite optional for that.

It's not a game of who's right or wrong.

Then why do you keep harping on?

Is it not the other way around?

Apparently not, if his PR efforts are any indication. Quite simply, I have no need of God. Neither do many other people. Deal with it already, will'ya?

you will find yourself waiting in line...to talk to God,

Or you could circumvent the line.....pray.

Feel free to do that if you want. I don't have the taste, the inclination or the hipocrisy to attempt to do something that I find pointless.

 

[TashaN]

Wow, thank you guys for all the information.

I'm wondering about something now, after all this great modern discoveries. Imagine you were back in the days when Darwin's theory hasn't appeared yet or not even any similar one. Imagine you believed in God at that time then the time came for a new discovery, Darwin's theory appeared into the scene. You suddenly find out there might be a chance that God, after all, didn't create a man called Adam then we all came from him. Now, what if someone passed away so convinced of today's discovery, then they eventually found out that God might had a role in all this?

As it was possible to have a discovery in Darwin's time, a new discovery might come in the future. So, would you then believe in God if that happened? are you quite open to that possibility?

 

[LuisDantas]

Wow, thank you guys for all the information.

I'm wondering about something now, after all this great modern discoveries. Imagine you were back in the days when Darwin's theory hasn't appeared yet or not even any similar one. Imagine you believed in God at that time then the time came for a new discovery, Darwin's theory appeared into the scene. You suddenly find out there might be a chance that God, after all, didn't create a man called Adam then we all came from him.

Are we assuming for argument's sake that I initially believed in the literal existence of Adam?

Now, what if someone passed away so convinced of today's discovery, then they eventually found out that God might had a role in all this?

Personally, I just don't see why such a discovery would shake anyone's faith in God in the first place. Literal belief in some ideas about him, sure. But God himself? I just don't see it happening.

As it was possible to have a discovery in Darwin's time, a new discovery might come in the future.

And they did. We know a whole lot more about how evolution happens than Darwin could hope to ever learn.

That is no badmouthing about Darwin himself; it just so happens that it is the nature of scientific research to accumulate information and discoveries.

So, would you then believe in God if that happened?

Due to a new scientific discovery, you mean? I don't imagine that happening either.

Well, I guess I can imagine it, but it would be ludicrous... something like mitochondria showing microscope-readable signs written "(C) God, Inc. All Rights Reserved."

But at that point it wouldn't very well be possible to be an Atheist or even an Agnostic, now would it?

The bottom line is, science did not make me doubt the existence of God, and science will not lead me into belief either. And that is quite alright.

are you quite open to that possibility?

Not really. I'm as atheistic as they come.

 

[TashaN]

So Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with your Atheism?

 

[Gunfingers]

So Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with your Atheism?

I can't speak for the others, but at the time I became an atheist I did not believe in evolution.

 

[TashaN]

Why do you think Creationists tend to be Theists and Evolutionists, well you know.

 

[Gunfingers]

...Also theists? Most people, regardless of religion, accept evolution. Even here in the US the acceptance rates of evolution are about 50% where only about 2% of americans identify themselves as atheists.

 

[LuisDantas]

So Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with your Atheism?

Yep. Absolutely nothing.

I will be surprised if I learn that it ever made much of a difference for a significant number of Atheists, in fact.

Sure, I know that arguments have been made about how Evolution is not as perfect as one would expect from a perfect God. There is some merit to them, but ultimately I don't think they are very important at all. Metaphysical matters are much more convincing either way.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why do you think Creationists tend to be Theists and Evolutionists, well you know.

Well, Creationists can't very well fail to be Theists, now can they?

As for evolutionists, it depends a bit on how exactly you define them, and I don't really know or even have a good guess on how many of them are atheists or agnostics.

I wouldn't expect acceptance of evolution to make much of a difference in general, although I suppose the actual scientific researchers might perhaps be a bit less inclined to believe in God's existence. Generally speaking, people aren't as likely to value belief in God when they are better educated. But there are lots of exceptions, and I don't expect that to change.

 

[painted wolf]

Wow, thank you guys for all the information.

Anytime.

I'm wondering about something now, after all this great modern discoveries. Imagine you were back in the days when Darwin's theory hasn't appeared yet or not even any similar one. Imagine you believed in God at that time then the time came for a new discovery, Darwin's theory appeared into the scene. You suddenly find out there might be a chance that God, after all, didn't create a man called Adam then we all came from him. Now, what if someone passed away so convinced of today's discovery, then they eventually found out that God might had a role in all this?

As it was possible to have a discovery in Darwin's time, a new discovery might come in the future. So, would you then believe in God if that happened? are you quite open to that possibility?

I already beleive in god.... as do most of the biologists I know.

wa:do

 

[TashaN]

Ok, back to human beings....

Is there anything in Evolution which conflicts with the common belief amongst Abrahamic faiths followers that God has created Adam, the father of human beings? not that we came by chance!

Can Scientists today say without a slightest doubt that Apes and modern human beings had a common ancestor?

 

[Gunfingers]

If you're going to think scientifically you need to remove the phrase "without a slightest doubt" from your personal lexicon. Nothing is ever 100% certain in science. The evidence of our relationship to great apes comes primarily from morphological, genetic, and biogeographic similarities.

Now conflict with the Genesis myth describing the creation comes from a couple sources. Among them:
-It is generally maintained that the garden of Eden was in modern day Iraq, however the first humans were in Africa.
-It is impossible to start a species with only two organisms. The lack of genetic diversity will make them sterile within a few generations.
-While all male humans can be traced back to a single male ancestor and all female humans to a single female ancestor, the two lived tens of thousands of years apart.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ok, back to human beings....

Is there anything in Evolution which conflicts with the common belief amongst Abrahamic faiths followers that God has created Adam, the father of human beings? not that we came by chance!

Even if we knew for a fact that there was no Adam as such, it would still be no proof that we came by chance. It would be an assumption, an educated guess so to speak. For all anyone can ever possibly know, things are as they are because God wants it so.

That said, it seems a safe bet to me that from a scientific standpoint it would be very difficult to defend the idea that a human Adam did exist. There are biological concepts of "Adam" and "Eve" currently in use, but these names are in my opinion ill-chosen and misleading. They don't really have anything in common with the Abrahamic concepts other than the names and the fact that by both definitions those are the most remote ancestors of human beings proper. For one thing, Adam is believed to have lived ten of thousands of years later than Eve.

The closer one can really come to a convergence between scientific findings and Abrahamic accounts of the origin of humanity is to notice that in both cases it is believed that the descendants of both Adam and Eve lived together and had offspring that is essentially the ancestors of current humanity. But those would be a large group, not a lone couple. And they all would still have common ancestors with current apes and chimps.


Y-chromosomal Adam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can Scientists today say without a slightest doubt that Apes and modern human beings had a common ancestor?

Can anyone, scientist or not, say without the slightest doubt that we weren't all created two seconds ago with full sets of false memories?

So no, not really. But for all practical, reasonable purposes, then yes.

 

[painted wolf]

Or one can see Adam as the moment man becomes "more than an animal". Adam gets a soul.

And again, natural selection isn't pure chance.

wa:do

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Wow, thank you guys for all the information.

I'm wondering about something now, after all this great modern discoveries. Imagine you were back in the days when Darwin's theory hasn't appeared yet or not even any similar one. Imagine you believed in God at that time then the time came for a new discovery, Darwin's theory appeared into the scene. You suddenly find out there might be a chance that God, after all, didn't create a man called Adam then we all came from him. Now, what if someone passed away so convinced of today's discovery, then they eventually found out that God might had a role in all this?

As it was possible to have a discovery in Darwin's time, a new discovery might come in the future. So, would you then believe in God if that happened? are you quite open to that possibility?

Absolutely. I am open to any possibility which is validated by evidence, including possibilities involving God.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

So Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with your Atheism?

Not really, because I believed in evolution long before I became an atheist. The Roman Catholic Church, and many other Christian organizations, have official statements which accept evolution as a scientific fact. Other more conservative churches, which take every word of the Bible literally, cannot accept evolution.

Why do you think Creationists tend to be Theists and Evolutionists, well you know.

Let's call them "anti-evolutionists", because we are talking about people who reject evolution, which is not the same as people who believe in a Creator. (Many people accept evolution as a fact, and also believe in a Creator.) I think "anti-evolutionists" tend to overwhelmingly be theists because they believe evolution interferes with their theism, and their commitment to theism is more important than objectively weighing the evidence.

 

[McBell]

Lack if faith ends in dust.

Which is much preferred over spending eternity with the god you present.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Ok, back to human beings....

Is there anything in Evolution which conflicts with the common belief amongst Abrahamic faiths followers that God has created Adam, the father of human beings? not that we came by chance!

Can Scientists today say without a slightest doubt that Apes and modern human beings had a common ancestor?

Yes. The genetic and fossil evidence is truly overwhelming. All experts in the field admit this -- including those who are fervent believers in God.