Ever notice anything about this forum?

[Quagmire]

I guess so. But I have always felt that fear is a poor helper, and those who truly love and adhere to a faith shouldn't bother to listen to fear of questioning.

I agree. I think anyone who's developed any meaningful faith has probably gone through a lot of questioning themselves, so they should understand why other people have questions.

 

[Thief]

Science isn't "truth".
Perhaps we have a prevailing attitude of hostility & hubris which drives away or cows into silence the creationists who
are reasonable & don't want to be flamed. This might leave us with only less sophisticated types who just proselytize
or love a donnybrook. Even the OP is rather insulting towards the creationists here.

He got frubals for that one.

Most of the threads I've participated in....with creation and evolution were at odds with each other....stayed that way.

All through this forum the scientific crowd argue as if there is no God....
prove otherwise.

As long as that persists....believers will look elsewhere for entertainment.

Fact is....both ideas are true.
Evolution works just fine.

God did it.

He remains the Creator.

 

[LuisDantas]

He got frubals for that one.

Most of the threads I've participated in....with creation and evolution were at odds with each other....stayed that way.

As opposed to...?

All through this forum the scientific crowd argue as if there is no God....
prove otherwise.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you suggesting that scientists should assume divine intervention instead of actually researching how things really happen?

I can't very well imagine another interpretation for this complaint of yours. Yet even that interpretations seems odd to me.

After all, why would we have a duty to avoid noticing what is supposed to be the work of God's Will?

As long as that persists....believers will look elsewhere for entertainment.

Wisely so, unless they happen to enjoy being trounced.

Fact is....both ideas are true.
Evolution works just fine.

God did it.

He remains the Creator.

If you say so. There is certainly nothing in Biology that is inherently incompatible with the idea of God. Still, what is usually named Creationism is not very friendly to Biology. Not sure about the reasons, myself.

 

[Krok]

As I've probably said too frequently, I've participated in online debates surrounding evolution and creationism for over a decade. So naturally, I've been a member of all sorts of forums...from ones like this one where the "evolutionists" outnumber the creationists by ~12:1, to ones where the inverse is the norm.

But this place (Religious Forums) is a little unique in one way I struggle with, namely the extremely poor quality of creationists that come here.

Sure, we've all seen our fair share of....well....flaming idiots, for lack of a better term in various forums and settings. This subject seems to attract such folks like few others. But even in other forums where the science advocates hold a clear majority, it isn't unusual to see an occasional creationist who has put at least a little time into the subject, makes at least token attempts to answer questions and address rebuttals, and generally engages in something resembling "debate".

But not here. Here we seem to only get the worst of the worst from the creationists, e.g. hit-n-run posters, trolls, liars, the ignorant, etc.

Why? This is a fairly active forum and comes up early in most Google searches. Is it 'cause we're so damned good that anyone who knows a little about the subject is scared to come here? Nah...although the folks here are impressive, I've been in other forums where the cast is equally credentialed (or moreso), and that never seemed to stop people from coming in.

So what gives with RF? Is it just me? I honestly haven't been looking around too much lately, and perhaps this is just the state of the "debate" nowadays.

From visiting forums like this, it occurs to me that only the really uneducated, ignorant and idiots (flaming idiots, for lack of a better term in various forums and settings) support creationism.

Normal Christians and Muslims avoid these forums. To me it seems as if Christians and Muslims know that these "creationists" really give them all a bad name. I deconverted as a result of YEC's, for heaven's sake. Didn't want to be associated with them in any way or form.

Me, personally, would love to debate normal people and hear their arguments. I would also accept personal relevations as something to consider, but only if these testimonies are not given by crazy people. A world created less than 10 000 years ago is absolutely crazy. Every single piece of evidence contradicts this. People still supporting that need to be in some institution and I certainly won't even consider their rantings. That's all we get on forums like this.

I would love to debate sane people! I might learn a lot from Christians and Muslims. I might even convert to a religion; but only if the evidence for the existence of that particular god is overwhelmingly convincing. It seems as if you won't find anyone even trying that on any forum.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, it doesn't sound very tolerant, I agree.
Appearances are so deceiving.

But appearances are so important....if you appear to treat someone like dirt, then that's how they'll see it.

Most of the threads I've participated in....with creation and evolution were at odds with each other....stayed that way.
All through this forum the scientific crowd argue as if there is no God....
prove otherwise.
As long as that persists....believers will look elsewhere for entertainment.
Fact is....both ideas are true.

I prefer to think that both ideas are not untrue.
(Of course, your beliefs are loopier than mine.)

The continual insults I see here towards creationists seem to stem from frustration at being unable to sway them to "the truth",
& from a sense of smug superiority. Why should we be upset that they don't change their minds? We can influence, but we can't
control their thoughts. But if to sway them is our real goal, debate works so much better if we don't inspire hatred. The worst
delusion here isn't creationism, but rather that bullying someone will make them see the light (ie, evolution).

 

[Krok]

... The worst delusion here isn't creationism, but rather that bullying someone will make them see the light (ie, evolution).

No, Revoltingest, I disagree. I think the biggest frustration here is that the current crop of creationists on this forum keep on lying. And lying. And lying. Then they repeat their lies, as if they think that nobody noticed their lies. That's delusion. Pointing to that is not bullying, it's pointing at their delusion. And their hypocracy. Frustration is not delusion.

 

[LuisDantas]

But appearances are so important....if you appear to treat someone like dirt, then that's how they'll see it.

That might trouble me if it happened by my choice instead of by theirs.

 

[LuisDantas]

The continual insults I see here towards creationists seem to stem from frustration at being unable to sway them to "the truth",
& from a sense of smug superiority.

Maybe they are, sometimes. Most of the time they seem to me to come from a feeling of frustration from witnessing stubborn, willful ignorance. Such a waste.

Why should we be upset that they don't change their minds?

Because they have the potential, and yet act out of fear and superstition instead. Spreading lies and further superstition while at it, to boot. That is plenty reason enough.

We can influence, but we can't control their thoughts. But if to sway them is our real goal, debate works so much better if we don't inspire hatred. The worst delusion here isn't creationism, but rather that bullying someone will make them see the light (ie, evolution).

Not sure why you think that happens at all often.

 

[Krok]

All through this forum the scientific crowd argue as if there is no God....prove otherwise.

Thief, you see, this is where the disagreements stem from. The "scientific crowd" is not out to "prove otherwise". Not at all. The term "prove" is for maths and alchohol (can't remember who said this, but this is my contribution to quote-mining). The scientific crowd is out to "gather evidence". After that the "scientific crowd" is out to "consider evidence". Following that the "scientific crowd" is out to "evaluate the evidence". After that the "scientific crowd" is out to "draw conclusions from the evidence". It seems as if the "non-scientific crowd" can't get their heads around this very simple principle: scientists consider all the empirical evidence available at the time and then draw conclusions. No "prove" involved. :yes:

 

[Jose Fly]

Perhaps we have a prevailing attitude of hostility & hubris which drives away or cows into silence the creationists who
are reasonable & don't want to be flamed. This might leave us with only less sophisticated types who just proselytize or love a donnybrook.

Another debate forum I recently participated in allowed people to swear at each other and name-call. It would oftentimes get pretty ugly and nasty. Yet somehow, there were a few creationists there who, while still generally ignorant and even somewhat dishonest at times, you could have an actual discussion with. Sure, there were others who were just like the creationist rabble here, but they were generally laughed at.

Even the OP is rather insulting towards the creationists here.

Well duh! Are you suggesting the creationists who inhabit this forum and behave the way they do have earned the right to be spared from insult? You think people like ManofFaith and NewHope have earned respect here?

 

[Jose Fly]

I have my doubts that there's any forum where the
Creationist/Evolutionist "debate" isn't utterly lame and pointless.

Again, don't immediately run to the other side of the spectrum. Just because I'm noting how completely awful the creationists at RF are, that doesn't mean I'm envisioning and hoping for the total opposite.

It's just that over the years I've been doing this, usually every now and then I would encounter a creationist who I at least enjoyed conversing with or debating....a person who while still believing in nonsense and clearly struggling to address direct questions and data, nevertheless put some level of effort into the discussion/debate.

It's like the difference between the loonies at Westboro Baptist Church and your run-of-the-mill conservative Southern Baptists. Sure, the Southern Baptists believe in some crazy stuff and support creationism, but you can at least talk to them.

Unfortunately at RF, it seems we get Fred Phelps equivalents almost exclusively.

 

[Jose Fly]

From visiting forums like this, it occurs to me that only the really uneducated, ignorant and idiots (flaming idiots, for lack of a better term in various forums and settings) support creationism.

Except that's not really true. Talk to just about anyone who's active in these battles and ask them "Are all creationists flaming idiots" and I'd be surprised if you get any yeses.

Normal Christians and Muslims avoid these forums. To me it seems as if Christians and Muslims know that these "creationists" really give them all a bad name. I deconverted as a result of YEC's, for heaven's sake. Didn't want to be associated with them in any way or form.

Yet millions of "normal Christians" support creationism in one way or another.

Me, personally, would love to debate normal people and hear their arguments. I would also accept personal relevations as something to consider, but only if these testimonies are not given by crazy people. A world created less than 10 000 years ago is absolutely crazy. Every single piece of evidence contradicts this. People still supporting that need to be in some institution and I certainly won't even consider their rantings. That's all we get on forums like this.

Well, I generally agree that YEC is totally bonkers, but I don't agree that therefore anyone adhering to it therefore should be institutionalized.

I would love to debate sane people! I might learn a lot from Christians and Muslims. I might even convert to a religion; but only if the evidence for the existence of that particular god is overwhelmingly convincing. It seems as if you won't find anyone even trying that on any forum.

In my experience, you'll have to look elsewhere for that. I'm not sure where exactly, as I'm currently going through a phase of not being all that interested in arguing the same points over and over and over....but I certainly encourage you to look around. No doubt you'll have to wade through a lot of crazies though.

 

[Oneatatime]

Personally I'm all for discussion but there is little gained from debating with someone who holds a position because on the basis that they want it to be true rather than because there is compelling evidence for that position.

the "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be."

Richard Feynman

 

[Thief]

No, Revoltingest, I disagree. I think the biggest frustration here is that the current crop of creationists on this forum keep on lying. And lying. And lying. Then they repeat their lies, as if they think that nobody noticed their lies. That's delusion. Pointing to that is not bullying, it's pointing at their delusion. And their hypocracy. Frustration is not delusion.

You should try my thread....
Something about Lying.....

 

[Thief]

Thief, you see, this is where the disagreements stem from. The "scientific crowd" is not out to "prove otherwise". Not at all. The term "prove" is for maths and alchohol (can't remember who said this, but this is my contribution to quote-mining). The scientific crowd is out to "gather evidence". After that the "scientific crowd" is out to "consider evidence". Following that the "scientific crowd" is out to "evaluate the evidence". After that the "scientific crowd" is out to "draw conclusions from the evidence". It seems as if the "non-scientific crowd" can't get their heads around this very simple principle: scientists consider all the empirical evidence available at the time and then draw conclusions. No "prove" involved. :yes:

Actually.....you rebuttal technique is precisely the point.

The scientific crowd do make denial of God.
The constant retort is ....'prove it'....

And of course faith....by definition requires no proving....
and the scientific crowd can't handle that.

Why believe if there is no equation...photograph.....fingerprint....experiment...

A scientist reach for 'something' he cannot touch?....won't happen.

But I happen to love science...got exceptional good grades and all that.

I believe in God...and evolution.

God did it.

 

[Quagmire]

Actually.....you rebuttal technique is precisely the point.

The scientific crowd do make denial of God.
The constant retort is ....'prove it'....

And of course faith....by definition requires no proving....
and the scientific crowd can't handle that.

That's not true at all. If someone comes on here and says "My religion tells me that xy=z, and though there's no way to prove it, I accept it on faith" , that's fine. You can't argue against faith and I don't see why anyone would feel the need to prove or defend their faith or what it's based on.

On the other hand, if someone comes on here and says "My religion tells me that xy=z" and tries to claim that this is somehow evidence against sciences assertion that xy=xy, then there's a problem.

If he takes it a step further, as most do, and tries to say "My religion tells me that xy=z, which disproves sciences claim that xy=xy, and since my position is a matter of faith I don't have to prove it in order to use it to disprove yours" that's what people can't handle, because really, what are you going to do with that?

Why believe if there is no equation...photograph.....fingerprint....experiment...

A scientist reach for 'something' he cannot touch?....won't happen.

Not true at all. Many scientists are theists. What a scientist wont do is reach for something he can't touch and then tell you that he touched it.

 

[Thief]

That's not true at all. If someone comes on here and says "My religion tells me that xy=z, and though there's no way to prove it, I accept it on faith" , that's fine. You can't argue against faith and I don't see why anyone would feel the need to prove or defend their faith or what it's based on.

On the other hand, if someone comes on here and says "My religion tells me that xy=z" and tries to claim that this is somehow evidence against sciences assertion that xy=xy, then there's a problem.

If he takes it a step further, as most do, and tries to say "My religion tells me that xy=z, which disproves sciences claim that xy=xy, and since my position is a matter of faith I don't have to prove it in order to use it to disprove yours" that's what people can't handle, because really, what are you going to do with that?



Not true at all. Many scientists are theists. What a scientist wont do is reach for something he can't touch and then tell you that he touched it.

I think we have a difference of opinion revolving around experience here at the forum.

Several participates here insist on some proving...and when none is delivered they insist that God does not exist.

As soon as the science ...and the equations ....are dropped then a discussion of theology can be accomplished.

Are you waiting for 'proof'?...I don't think so.....

But I don't think you believe....and for lack of proof?

 

[David M]

Sure, we've all seen our fair share of....well....flaming idiots, for lack of a better term in various forums and settings. This subject seems to attract such folks like few others. But even in other forums where the science advocates hold a clear majority, it isn't unusual to see an occasional creationist who has put at least a little time into the subject, makes at least token attempts to answer questions and address rebuttals, and generally engages in something resembling "debate".

I don't know, I've seen some some truly dumb stuff claimed on other forums.
e.g.
Polar Bears were scared white by humans.
Ice is not frozen water.

 

[McBell]

I don't know, I've seen some some truly dumb stuff claimed on other forums.
e.g.
Polar Bears were scared white by humans.
Ice is not frozen water.

Seriously?

Now those forums would seriously test my self control....

 

[Revoltingest]

Seriously?
Now those forums would seriously test my self control....

Hell....90% of the posters here are rancid buffoons.
The other 10% agree with me.