Ever notice how atheists are virtually always on the opposite side from God on many issues?

[Windwalker]

I take what some of these soft sciences people say with a pinch of salt, especially if they are theists.

Who says he was a theist? And what's more, don't you believe theists can be rational and follow scientific principles without falling into fundamentalist, mythic-literal, prerational, premodern thoughts? Isn't this highly biased on your part, and therefore irrational?

There is nothing new in saying that meditation is not the same as self-hypnosis.

What is new is his presentation showing the differences and why it supports that it isn't. Remember, you assumed, knee-jerked, lept to the view he was claiming it was the same thing?

I have gone through the suggested page 13 and some pages that follow it. He got entangled in a maze of words and tables.

Too technical for you, huh? I thought you wanted rational explanations for things, maps, and categorizations and whatnot which are part of a scientific approach? Too wordy? I think not.

He has no experience or understanding of meditation. He only has a bookish knowledge.

Bull****. Again, you're pulling stuff out of thin air with no support whatsoever. This is pure knee-jerk dismissive cynicism, not rationality.

If someone starts with a prejudice, then he will experience only that.

Bingo. They won't be fair in their assessments. They'll make knee-jerk assumptions and responses without reading the content and trying to understand fairily what is being said. They'll make statements like taking with a grain of salt people's research "especially if they are theists", and the like. This is not rationality at all. It's pure religious prejudice.

This is quite common in religions. The purpose of meditation is to clean the mind of prejudices and then contemplate on any subject. If one starts with a wrong premise, the person will never be able to get to truth.

I have many years of practice of meditation, and I can tell you this is woefully inadequate. Why are you trying to still the discursive mind? What is the goal? To relax and chill out, dude?

God and soul are imaginary entities. What people have thought about God is absolutely wrong.

Absolutely, huh? It doesn't occur to you that the experience of Emptiness, or Nirvana can be described by using the word "God"?

There has been no prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi dispatched by God. People were ignorant, had psychological problems or were plan scammers.

So, faith is only for the ignorant, the mentally ill, or conmen? I don't hear any prejudices here at all.

I have been very curious. I have gone through the scriptures of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Bahaism. That is how I turned out to be a strong atheist.

That and probably only using meditation for chilling out and becoming more focused on tasks. I'm quite sure reading it without that openness the actual meditation creates in practioners does lead the rational mind to its own points of views of "utter nonsense", this symbolic stuff. "Facts, I just need facts".

If people talk rubbish, then it is OK to scoff at them.

Even when you are the ignorant one? To those who understand these things at deeper levels, it's the scoffer that is the fool.

I have no fear at all.

I seriously doubt this, based on your reactions, biases, and dismissive cynicisms.

I am a non-dualist (an Advaitist Hindu).

Is this something you adopted after Christianity, by chance?

Death (and birth) have no meaning for me, they are but illusions. Nothing that constitutes me, not a single molecule or atom of my body will die when what you call as death comes to me. I am star-dust. I am eternal.

So your physical matter that makes up your body is what is eternal?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have many years of practice of meditation, ..
It doesn't occur to you that the experience of Emptiness, or Nirvana can be described by using the word "God"?
So, faith is only for the ignorant, the mentally ill, or conmen? I don't hear any prejudices here at all.
.. becoming more focused on tasks.
.. it's the scoffer that is the fool.
Is this something you adopted after Christianity, by chance?
So your physical matter that makes up your body is what is eternal?

I think you started with prejudices and wasted your time. You are nowhere near truth.
No. It cannot and should not be made into a non-existent entity.
Yes, faith without evidence is for ignorant, mentally ill and conmen (it makes it easy for them to fool people).
Yes, one goes to meditation with a task. Meditation with nothing to focus on is an oxymoron.
(Dhyana, Dharana. If you have nothing to focus on then what are you doing? Just wasting time)
Truth hurts only the false and ignorant. It does not affect one who understands.
What, in the name of Allah, is adoptable in Christianity other than social rules which are not owned by Christianity alone?
What are we other than a mass of molecules?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

in life as we know it, ["creation/formation of something" is] an indication of the cognizance of humans

No, it's not. That's only one possibility, and doesn't account for most of what's created, which is created by blind, natural processes, like a rainstorm or a mountain.

such an endowment is not physical, it's a spiritual awareness that transcends the material realm.

Nothing "transcends" nature, which is physical.

those that love God in return, will be rewarded accordingly.

Yes, but not in the way you mean. Many will be "rewarded" with a lifetime of religion and what that entails before the grave and eternal sleep.

don't be fooled by the discretion that God employed in revealing Himself - although it appears obscure to some, those that love Him will always find Him.

The atheist is not fooled by words like those or why you need to write them. If this god were real, it could be detected without choosing to "reveal" itself just like anything else that's real. But if it's not and you choose to believe in existence anyway, you are forced to defend its absenteeism.

This is by design, which allows for no excuses

If you were correct, it certainly does give an excuse for not finding this shy god.

it is only the indifferent and defiant that cannot see Him, or His mark in creation.

So you must tell yourself to perpetuate the fantasy that this god exists and is discernible. But let's rewrite that sentence using things we know do exist and then with something we assume doesn't exist:

It is only the indifferent and defiant that cannot see the sun.
It is only the indifferent and defiant that cannot see leprechauns.

If God is as real as the sun, it is as detectible given the right detector in the right place at the right time. If imaginary, the opposite is the case. That's a good enough test for reality - does it interact with other real things in space and time. If not, it's not out there. It's only an imagination in some head or heads.

God created the universe, and did not employ evolution as part of its development - not outside of species.

If by "God" you mean the god of Abraham, you are incorrect. There was no six days of creation, no first human beings, no global flood, no tower of Babel. And the theory of evolution including what creationists call macroevolution has been shown correct beyond reasonable doubt. If the universe has a god or gods, that's how it did it. This other god that creates "kinds" has been ruled out.

Like all Abrahamic creationist apologists, you have the unenviable task of defending a demonstrably incorrect guess.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When you're talking about God and man, yes. It's not a necessity, but, in life as we know it, it's an indication of the cognizance of humans - such an endowment is not physical, it's a spiritual awareness that transcends the material realm.

No one is here by our own volition - it pleased God to offer humans life and the potential to love. And, those that love God in return, will be rewarded accordingly.
You can be as obstinate as you want, even with all the evidence around you - don't be fooled by the discretion that God employed in revealing Himself - although it appears obscure to some, those that love Him will always find Him.
This is by design, which allows for no excuses - it is only the indifferent and defiant that cannot see Him, or His mark in creation.

Ah, I see it's my fault I don't see evidence of God anywhere. Not God's fault, even though he'd be the one who would know exactly what sort of evidence would be convincing to me. Cool story, bro.

 

[SkepticThinker]

God created the universe, and did not employ evolution as part of its development - not outside of species.

And yet evolution is a demonstrable fact of life. Go figure.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You are not looking in the right place for evidence. Let logic lead the way rather than materialism and objective reality. Have you ever had a vivid dream? If so you'd know that some of the characters in a dream can manifest or materialize in the world around you and affect the reality in the so-called "material" environment WHILE YOU ARE ASLEEP.

Consider for example that space-time is quantized at the Plank length. We need only ask, what are the implications of space-time breaking up at the quantum level? Can it then still be considered real?

The people in your dreams somehow come out of your dreams and interact with the material environment while you are asleep? How do you know this and how can you show this?

 

[F1fan]

You are not looking in the right place for evidence.

Why isn't the evidence available for all to see? Is it secret evidence?

Let logic lead the way rather than materialism and objective reality.

Logic is a set of rules that skilled thinkers use. Logic, materialism, and objective reality are all interrelated.

Have you ever had a vivid dream?

Oh yeah. This one time I remember waking up after having drempt I won the lottery and was setting up plans of what I was going to use the money for. When I woke up I was so excited. But it took about 15-20 seconds to realize it was all a dream, and not true. That sucked.

If so you'd know that some of the characters in a dream can manifest or materialize in the world around you and affect the reality in the so-called "material" environment WHILE YOU ARE ASLEEP.

Dreams are material processes that material brains perform. The dreams happen with electrochemical signals which can be detected as brain activity. All brain activies are material, so I'm not sure what is "so called" about it.

Consider for example that space-time is quantized at the Plank length. We need only ask, what are the implications of space-time breaking up at the quantum level? Can it then still be considered real?

I don't know. If I want an answer I will only trust physicists with good reputations. I sure don't take the opinions of ordinary folk on internet forums.

 

[Windwalker]

I think you started with prejudices and wasted your time.

You assume many things, and every time are proven wrong.

You are nowhere near truth.

You believe.

No. It cannot and should not be made into a non-existent entity.

I've never spoken of God as an entity. Add that to your list of errant assumptions.

Yes, faith without evidence is for ignorant, mentally ill and conmen (it makes it easy for them to fool people).

If one has evidence, then is it faith anymore? I don't think you understand what a religious faith actually is.

Yes, one goes to meditation with a task. Meditation with nothing to focus on is an oxymoron.
(Dhyana, Dharana. If you have nothing to focus on then what are you doing? Just wasting time)

You lack a great deal of knowledge about these things. There are two basic types of meditation. Concentrative and Insight or Awareness meditation. Concentrative meditation focuses on a single point to the exclusion of all other thought. Awareness meditation, which is practiced by most of Buddhism as Vipassana meditation.

It is a defocal meditation, where you do not focus on anything at all, but simply let whatever arises arise, without resistance or judgment, but without attaching yourself to it. It is like watching thoughts float by you like clouds. The result of that opens a spaciousness in awareness, and you become a Witness or an observer of your own thoughts. This is learning to not focus on anything at all, for the benefit of increased awareness. It learns to take in vast amounts of information, as opposed to laser focus on a single object.

In T'ai Chi, we do both. We are completely relaxed and open and not focused on a single point, until we need to be for a split second in attack or defense, and then back to relaxation, with no object focus again. What you deem to be worthless or a waste of time. I would say this is far more valuable than laser focus as the natural state. As I said, you boast of knowledge, but lack much of even the basics.

If you care to learn more about meditation, I recommend you read this brief but highly informative question and answer dialog. That is of course, only if you are actually interested.

STAGES OF MEDITATION

Ken offers an in-depth description of each of the major state-stages of meditative practice—ranging from psychic absorption, to subtle illumination, to

www.patheos.com

Truth hurts only the false and ignorant. It does not affect one who understands.

It's usually the uninformed and fearful, or insecure, who boast how much they know, and claim things like Enlightenment.

What, in the name of Allah, is adoptable in Christianity other than social rules which are not owned by Christianity alone?

You bypassed my actual question for you. Were you previously a Christian who adopted Advaita Vedanta? It's a simple question. Are you a former Christian?

What are we other than a mass of molecules?

Consciousness. Advaita Vedanta teaches this. The Jiva is not the only thing we are. You are familiar with this term, aren't you?

BTW, in just looking at this about Advaita Vedanta and what it teaches, I'd say it is everything I have been saying, and doesn't look like what you preach.

Advaita Vedanta is not mere philosophical speculation or theory; it has direct experience as its basis as well as ultimate proof. To lift the veil of maya, Advaita Vedanta exhorts the spiritual seeker to take the testimony of the scriptures (Vedas) and illumined souls, use reason, reflection, and meditation, and attain direct experience. These are the compasses, maps, and sails needed to steer successfully to the highest union with Brahman. One must transcend the effects of maya in order to know the nature of its cause.​

​

....​

​

This level of realization stems from a great Upanishadic truth: ‘From pure consciousness, which is of the nature of absolute bliss, all beings arise, by it are they sustained, and it they reenter at death.’[4]​

​

Consciousness in Advaita Vedanta

By Pravrajika Brahmaprana Wandering mendicants greet each other: ‘Om. Is your vision clear?’ ‘Om’ is a salutation to the indwelling divinity, or Atman, within all...

www.hindupedia.com

​

I find it odd you identify with this, yet deny what it teaches.

 

[Valjean]

God created the universe, and did not employ evolution as part of its development - not outside of species.

All evidence contradicts this. This belief is not based on either reason or evidence.

 

[Valjean]

It is amazing to me how some would argue that something came from nothing..(lol)

What are you talking about? It's the religious like you who make this claim, it is not the claim of science.

You are not looking in the right place for evidence. Let logic lead the way rather than materialism and objective reality. Have you ever had a vivid dream? If so you'd know that some of the characters in a dream can manifest or materialize in the world around you and affect the reality in the so-called "material" environment WHILE YOU ARE ASLEEP.

Consider for example that space-time is quantized at the Plank length. We need only ask, what are the implications of space-time breaking up at the quantum level? Can it then still be considered real?

Reality is different in different levels of consciousness. Reality is layered. Mixing your dream-state (2nd-state) reality, or @Windwalker's 6th-state reality, with the 3rd-state we're speaking from here yiields nothing but contradictions and misunderstanding.

Most of us have been speaking from the material, waking-state reality we live in; where reason, science and logic apply.
These may not apply in other levels of perception, but trying to apply facts from one level to others won't work.
Pick a Reality and stick with it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Unevidenced belief.

It's no more "unevidenced" than humanism..
If anything, it has more evidence .. but you cannot perceive.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why would that matter if they can't present a strong, evidenced argument in support of their belief?

Of course it matters.
Are you saying that more than 50% of the human race are intellectually deficient,
because they are convinced that the Abrahamic concept of God is true?

No .. it's just how you react to the subject .. deriding it allows your soul to ignore its tenets.

But you and your religion ARE the dark side for me, at least to the extent that it and you oppose humanist philosophy and human progress.

..such as the progress that our way of life contributes to climate change?

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is by design, which allows for no excuses - it is only the indifferent and defiant that cannot see Him, or His mark in creation.

That's right .. God, the Most High just thinks "Be, and it is".
Our souls are defiant to our own hurt.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God created the universe, and did not employ evolution as part of its development - not outside of species..

Does it matter?
..and I don't think that we can say with certainty, HOW G-d created the universe and all it contains.
..and what's more .. we have no need of knowing.

I'm not thinking of creating a universe in opposition to G-d's .. are you?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Where did god come from? If you answer "he was always here" then that answer can also be applied to the universe.

So what!
It is more likely that the big-bang theory is correct, and that the universe
has evolved from nought.

 

[muhammad_isa]

As for space-time, not everything is clear. Science is working on it..

"science" can't work on anything!
It is mankind who seek knowledge by observation and imagination.
We discover particles exist and call them names .. it is an endless process.
We cannot expect to discover all there is to know.

You put your faith in the creation i.e. mankind, whilst true believers put their faith
in the Creator.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who is saying that something came from nothing?

Well, I do.
In a physical sense, in any case.

 

[Soandso]

Well, I do.
In a physical sense, in any case.

That's fair!

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've never spoken of God as an entity.
I don't think you understand what a religious faith actually is.

There are two basic types of meditation. Concentrative and Insight or Awareness meditation.
It is a defocal meditation, where you do not focus on anything at all, but simply let whatever arises arise, without resistance or judgment, but without attaching yourself to it.

It's usually the uninformed and fearful, or insecure, who boast how much they know, and claim things like Enlightenment.

You bypassed my actual question for you. Were you previously a Christian who adopted Advaita Vedanta? It's a simple question. Are you a former Christian?

Consciousness. Advaita Vedanta teaches this. The Jiva is not the only thing we are. You are familiar with this term, aren't you?
BTW, in just looking at this about Advaita Vedanta and what it teaches, I'd say it is everything I have been saying, and doesn't look like what you preach.

Advaita Vedanta exhorts the spiritual seeker to take the testimony of the scriptures (Vedas) ..
‘From pure consciousness, which is of the nature of absolute bliss, all beings arise, by it are they sustained, and it they reenter at death.’[4]

I find it odd you identify with this, yet deny what it teaches.

If God is not entity then what is it?
I know exactly what faith is. It is belief without evidence.

I differ with this scheme. How can one have insight if one does not concentrate. There is only one type of meditation. Floating is the initial stage when you do not resist your thoughts. Floating all the time will be a perversion, just for fun, it does not achieve anything. Better start sweeping the floor and bring water.
What do you mean by 'a single point' - a pendulum, the flame of an earthen lamp, count your breaths? I do not meditate in this way.
Even awareness of things around is an initial stage.

You cannot know what I know. Buddha said that it is imponderable, incomprehensible (Acinteyya).
"The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana"

I am not a former Christian. I am a born Hindu. That should have been clear by the use of swastika in my avatara. But OK.

Don't go by what others have said. People may have different views. I think I mentioned earlier, I am a strong atheist. I do not believe in God or soul.
Advaita sure says that only one entity exists, but that is at an absolute level. At the worldly level, existence of different things is accepted. The absolute level is termed as 'Paramarthika Satya' and the worldly level is termed as 'Vyavaharika Satya'. Absolute truth and pragmatic truth.

It is not essential to accept scriptures as the final truth in Hinduism. 'Vaisheshika' philosophjy says that what the scriptures say can be accepted, but only after verification by other means. (Pramana - Wikipedia)
Well, that was the Taittiriya Upanishad view. I differ with that. Human consciousness is a temporary thing and it does not last after death. There is nothing like 'Pure Consciousness', bliss and sorrow do not exist after enlightenment. And after death, what constitutes us, molecules, disperse in the environment never to meet again.
Yeah, I deny what you have written, but why are you surprised by it? Your Christian background and dependence on scriptures does not allow you to comprehend this. Nothing other than performing one's duty is absolutely essential in Hinduism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, I do.
In a physical sense, in any case.

Is there any other sense? If it is not in physical sense, then it is senseless.