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Ever notice how atheists are virtually always on the opposite side from God on many issues?

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
..but we do NOT "start" from such premises..

We start from "why am I alive"?
"Why can I acknowledge existence, and feel"?
etc.
And in doing so, you set yourself up for failure. Far too often, when we ask "why," we are looking for a teleological rather than causal answer to such questions -- and that just might not exist.

Why you are alive is simply because your parental gametes got together, and nothing impeded the pregnancy until your birth. We might be able to ask why your parents engaged with each other rather than someone else, but we will never be able to answer why sperm 562,741 reached the ovum first, rather then sperm 114,549 -- which may well have created quite a different person than the one you are now.

We may be able to pin-point the causal reason that the pane of glass fell out of the office tower window, but from that you will never discern a teleological reason for why it killed the baby in the carriage without harming the mother pushing it.

Any parent can tell you how annoying it can get when a child persistently asks "why?" because in the end, with no other answer available, they will be forced to shut the conversation down with "because!"
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I never said that..
In any case, who are you to say what is rational or irrational?
All of us are at times irrational. Right now religious beliefs are irrational because it does not appear to be possible for any believer to make a rational argument for his or her belief.


Right .. not everybody has a good academic background..

That is why I said "sometimes".
There are many creeds .. yes, they have tribal/cultural origin.
..but belief in God itself, is not about creed.
Are you even listening? We know that they are cultural because people with a different belief than that of the culture that they grew up in are the rare exception.
NO! They are not all wrong.
The Abrahamic God exists, and He has caused some of among us to be messengers
to guide us.

Prove it. To date no one has come close to doing that. To me that is a good indication, but I will admit that it is not proof, that they are wrong.
The Christian Bible is a collection of scrolls .. it is based on truth, but rewritten by
scribes, who are not necessarily prophets.
The OT is less reliable than the NT, in that regard.
etc.
And the NT is not very reliable either. A parallel reading of the Gospels show that. There is constant contradiction between them. From the ten year time difference between the two nativity myths to the day of the crucifixion.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
They can .. but assuming that most intelligent people actually do that, implies
that the majority are not sincere.
I have not found that to be the case.

No, compartmentalization is not equal to insincerity.
You wouldn't understand it if they tried to explain it to you.
There is clearly some underlying psychological reason for assuming the worst of people..
i.e. assuming faith is based on nothing but what might suit them, and not on sincerely seeking

No one is assuming that faith is based on nothing, but believers quite often demonstrate that it is.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would agree that most people follow the norms of their society. We are not all "leading professors" .. and so?
Your argument seemed to be that most of the world believes in a god or gods, and that they couldn't all be irrational, or that it was offensive to call their beliefs irrational. Now you add that most are relatively uneducated. "Leading professors" is where atheism clusters. Not being "leading professors" is where theism clusters. Those are the relevant numbers, not the relative size of the two groups as you implied earlier. Having a bigger pool of theists than atheists just means that most of humanity is straggling behind the "leading professors."
You couldn't possess any such skill, without a basic skill for logic...maybe that is where you are going wrong
Going wrong? My worldview works. I'm happy. How is yours serving you?
You are implying that when they are doing their rounds, and treating patients, they are being rational..
..and when they have 10 minutes off to go and pray to God [5 times a day worship],
they are being irrational.

What???
They have a flip-switch in their head?
That called compartmentalization. If one can keep his magical thinking outside of the exam room, he can do the same job as any other critical thinker if he has those skills. And then, yes, he can 'flip a switch' in a break room and go into another less rigorous mode of thought.
we do NOT "start" from such premises..

We start from "why am I alive"?
"Why can I acknowledge existence, and feel"?
etc.
Those aren't premises. They're questions.

Your premises - your faith-based assumptions about gods and the supernatural - are "magical, untestable and unevidenced premises."
who are you to say what is rational or irrational?
A trained critical thinker. Such people specialize in making such distinctions.
The Abrahamic God exists
The Abrahamic god has been ruled out by the evidence for evolution. For example, there were no first human beings in any garden, no fall or original sin, and no need for a savior.

Ask yourself what the new paradigm would be if the theory of evolution were falsified tomorrow. Suddenly, we are faced with undeniable evidence that Darwin et all were wrong. Maybe a cat gives birth to a dog naturally in a way that fraud can be ruled out, and suddenly, we have an irreducibly complex descendent proving that an intelligent designer is somehow affecting evolution - not just natural genetic variation. Cats can't vary that much over one generation.

Now what? The Abrahamic god? No. That god has been ruled out for the reasons just given. Pick another intelligent designer. My leading candidate hypothesis would be a race of unseen technologically advanced extraterrestrials. That's a very unlikely possibility now, which is why we say that the theory has been confirmed beyond REASONABLE doubt, but if the theory were falsified, that's the one that replaces it. That becomes the more reasonable of two alternative theories for intelligent design, the other invoking gods and supernaturalism and therefore much less parsimonious than a naturalistic hypothesis.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
They can .. but assuming that most intelligent people actually do that, implies
that the majority are not sincere.
I have not found that to be the case.
Compartmentalism doesn't mean people are insincere. I think you are looking for excuses to dismiss what we observe in some folks, that they can be rational in some ways, but completely irrational in other ways. Our minds can manage all sorts of things easily.

But you are correct in one way, as we see some theists state their views on things, and they are corrected, yet refuse to accept their errors. Look at creationists who refuse to respect science.
You wouldn't understand it if they tried to explain it to you.
Another excuse. Can you point to any believer that explained their beliefs and it was agreed by some different believer? Would you accept a Christian tell you how Jesus saves your soul? Of course not, you are a Muslim and you reject it. So is it that you just don't get it? Is it that you are just corrupted by Islam and you can't understand how jesus would save your soul if you opened up? Or do you realize that believers have the agency and authority to reject ideas like Jesus because Christians can't show any of us that their dogma is true in reality?
There is clearly some underlying psychological reason for assuming the worst of people..
Well work on it.
i.e. assuming faith is based on nothing but what might suit them, and not on sincerely seeking
Like I said, you could become a Christian as soon as you realize Jesus will save your soul. Or do you just not get it yet, and prefer to end up in hell?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All of us are at times irrational.
Agreed, and that is a good thing - except when we're trying to decide what's true about the world. Then, only rational, empirical thinking is desirable. But at other times, modes of thought based in intuitions such as moral intuitions or what is beautiful are preferable, neither depending on reason or empiricism.

I find the example of improvising on a musical instrument like an electric guitar instructive. The first part is rational - learning how the instrument is tuned, where the chords and scales are on the neck, learning music theory, etc.. One is in a focused mode then. But later, when the skills have been learned, and one is playing music, the mental state is very different, attention is not concentrated but diffuse, and one is thinking about what is beautiful, not what is true. The former is an irrational mode of thought, but since the word is insulting for many, maybe better called nonrational thought.

But that's where the money is in life - the passions, not the reasoning. Reasoning is just a means for arranging the passions, for facilitating more of the enjoyable experiences and fewer of the dysphoric ones. I like the metaphors of the horse and rider or the brush and the pigment to represent this relation of affective experience being managed by cognitive thought. They're both necessary for a good life. Either alone is disastrous. Passionless reason is dull, and in the extreme, the anhedonism of major depression - the inability to experience pleasure - leads to suicide or suicidal ideation. And passion without reason is eventually self-destructive.

So reason deserves to be exalted, but only as a means to an end. Absent the passions, it has little value except to prolong a colorless life.
assuming that most intelligent people actually do that, implies that the majority are not sincere.
Maybe you're familiar with Newton's Principia, in which Newton describes the celestial mechanics of our solar system mathematically. Unfortunately, Newton's math predicted that larger planets like Jupiter and Saturn would toss planets like earth into the sun or out of the solar system, and so, he added his god ad hoc right there where he ran out of knowledge, who nudged the planets back into position. This is when he reached the limits of reason and veered into magical thinking. That's when his work changed from compartmentalized reasoning that any equally talented atheistic scientist might have come up with into something radically different, and of course, wrong. Recall that Newton lived on the cusp of modernity - he was one of its authors - and was interested in alchemy. And of course, he was quite sincere, but his compartmentalization ended when his math did, and that's when he turned to magic and even put it in his book.

Then, a century later, Laplace supplied the mathematics Newton lacked, restoring the solar system to a clockwork needing no intelligent supervision.

Einstein faced a similar dilemma. If the universe were infinitely old, all of its contents should have come together in one place by now due to gravity, so, instead of the hand of God to restore order, he inserted a cosmological constant into his equations, which turned out to be unnecessary once it was understood that the universe is expanding. But Einstein didn't invoke gods notwithstanding his metaphorical usage of the word to mean the laws of physics. He added a mindless physical law, not a person.
There is clearly some underlying psychological reason for assuming the worst of people.. i.e. assuming faith is based on nothing but what might suit them, and not on sincerely seeking
Seeking the worst of people? He and I are describing them and comparing them to critical thinkers. Faith *IS* based on nothing but what is comforting or feels right or is believed because it comes from a trusted source.

Sincerity is irrelevant and isn't being questioned. One's epistemology is. It's pretty simple - faith is guessing and assuming that one's guess is correct. It isn't a product of evidence, and evidence doesn't impact it once a faith-based confirmation bias is established to defend it from contradictory evidence. It is not a virtue. It's the lowest form of intellect. It's what children do exclusively until and unless they learn to think critically.

From Pat Condell:

"[F]aith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelief. It's an act of will. It's not a state of grace. It's a state of choice, because without evidence, you've got no reason to believe, apart from your willingness to believe. So why is that worthy of respect, any more than your willingness to poke yourself in the eye with a pencil? And why is faith considered some kind of virtue? Is it because it implies a certain depth of contemplation and insight? I don't think so. Faith, by definition, is unexamined. So in that sense it has to be among the shallowest of experiences."

Rebut that if you think you can, and by rebuttal, I mean attempt to falsify it, not just dissent with or without what you believe instead that doesn't contradict what you reject with evidenced argument.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's the kind of statement that makes me see that you don't understand what I'm talking about. You say it's their truth, but it's based on falsehoods. My argument is that if it is consistent with available truths as they understand them to be, given that particular framework or stage through which they see reality, it is not based on falsehoods to them.
You're not difficult to understand. You've been clear. And I agree with your description of how such people process information and decide what's true about the world. The difference is that you seem to respect their faith-based beliefs, whereas I consider them flawed.
They aren't necessarily being sloppy with facts. Their reasoning may in fact be perfectly sound, yet their conclusions may be error to those who understand larger contexts, through larger frameworks. My point is that their reasoning isn't irrationaol, wrong, or based on falsehoods. You claim because you see it differently from a larger context, they are being irrational when they are not. So far, nothing you are saying is showing me you recognize this.
If their conclusions are erroneous, their thinking isn't sound. As usual, I mean this in the academic sense as I do when I say justified. It's not the same as what soft thinkers (not rigorous) mean by sound or justified, and their beliefs *ARE* "irrational, wrong, or based on falsehoods."
Do you believe children are irrational idiots because they don't see what you as a mature adult can given your stage of development?
Yes, but I don't use that language.
I've argued to no avail, that to them, they believe they have the evidence. Otherwise, they wouldn't believe it.
To no avail? I believe what you wrote, and I assume others here do as well. But so what?
But evidence to them, is not sufficient evidence to those at your stage.
Understood. And until they master the proper analysis of evidence, that will remain the case. But once again, the disconnect here seems to be that you consider this an equally valid way of processing information, and I don't, which causes you to say that you aren't being understood even though your claims are clear. No, you're just being disagreed with.
It's not just a different language for the same thing, but a different kind of reality altogether.
I'd say a different world view, but the same reality perceived differently, and in my opinion, suboptimally based in the fruits of that method.
let's see if what is said above is understood first, which so far I'm not hearing it yet.
I think you mean agreed with. Nobody appears to be having any difficulty understanding your words.
The atheist falls prey to a type of logic that resides in the illusory trap correctly defined as "the matrix" and are blinded by materialist delusion.
Thanks for your concern, but really, this way of thinking has been quite productive, not a trap, which implies a cost to it. I'm a happy guy. I require nothing more from a worldview than for it to help me find a life of love, beauty, leisure, and comfort including relative freedom from fear, anxiety, shame, guilt, and etc.. doing things I enjoy like this activity. I can't ask for more and would be ungrateful and foolish if it weren't enough.

How about you? How are your beliefs serving you? Are you happy with your choices?
I, for one, use science as a tool to shed light of the fact of God's existence.
There is no such fact. This is YOUR illusory trap and matrix of delusion. It defines how you think and expend energy.
Did you know that reality is observing itself through us? That makes it self-observational. OOPS. There I go again being "irrational".
I'd say it was a brush with rationality. Sagan memorialized the thought:

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I
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
We know that they are cultural because people with a different belief than that of the culture that they grew up in are the rare exception.
That's nonsense!
Nations evolve .. they do not hold the same majority creed ad infinitum.

Prove it.
I am not your slave..
I will only "perform" when I wish .. and I see no point in arguing with you.
Take it or leave it.
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..If one can keep his magical thinking outside of the exam room, he can do the same job as any other critical thinker if he has those skills. And then, yes, he can 'flip a switch' in a break room and go into another less rigorous mode of thought.
Day after day? A person becomes irrational five times a day.
Ha .. you're a laugh :D

The Abrahamic god has been ruled out by the evidence for evolution..
Is that your "critical thinking"?
You need to think again, and revise the topic more thoroughly.
The theory of evolution is scientific, and has no bearing on religion.

Now, Darwinism .. that is a false religion ;)
The man became barmy while onboard ship .. he became confused, and misguided.

For example, there were no first human beings in any garden, no fall or original sin, and no need for a savior.
That is specific to Orthodox [Roman] Christian belief.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Like I said, you could become a Christian as soon as you realize Jesus will save your soul. Or do you just not get it yet, and prefer to end up in hell?
I cannot become a Christian .. I already am one. :)
..not a Roman Christian, mind you.
I agree somewhat with Constantine, as on his deathbed, he got baptised by an Arian priest.
Arians did not believe that Jesus is God.

That was part of the "Romanisation" of the Jewish faith.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..It's pretty simple - faith is guessing and assuming that one's guess is correct. It isn't a product of evidence..
..not as in "God showed me his physical face" .. and that would be illogical, in any case.
..but it is what is known as an "educated guess".

Are you claiming to be more educated in religion than I am?
Perhaps your guess, that religion is codswallop is .. well .. codswallop :D

Rebut that if you think you can, and by rebuttal, I mean attempt to falsify it, not just dissent with or without what you believe instead that doesn't contradict what you reject with evidenced argument.
You speak as the serpent spoke .. you are wasting your breath .. I am sure that God is One,
and that satan cannot win .. in the long run!
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
..not as in "God showed me his physical face" .. and that would be illogical, in any case.
..but it is what is known as an "educated guess".

Are you claiming to be more educated in religion than I am?
What difference does it make that a person has been educated about what a religion means? What that education won't include is evidence that the God they describe exists outside of believer's imagination.

The crucial education is critical thinking skill. That is how a mind can distinguish true from false, or uncertain. Religious indoctrination will teach what a person should believe, and without question.
You speak as the serpent spoke .. you are wasting your breath .. I am sure that God is One,
and that satan cannot win .. in the long run!
This is how an indoctrinated person believes, and they do so without tests in reality.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Religious indoctrination will teach what a person should believe, and without question.
See .. you are so blind to the fact that you are biased.
You see the teaching of religion as indoctrination, while the teaching of science is education.

You are in error. They are BOTH worthy of study.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
See .. you are so blind to the fact that you are biased.
That's a claim, where is your evidence? You offer no evidence that your religion is truthful, or that what you believe is valid as a conclusion.
You see the teaching of religion as indoctrination,
No, I see your beliefs as a result of indoctrination because you think it is certain.
while the teaching of science is education.
Science is knowledge, not asking children to believe in false and irratonal ideas. And science shows its work, unlike religion.
You are in error. They are BOTH worthy of study.
I never said studying religion is bad, I said indoctrination is. I think it immoral to indoctrinate children into religion because they are not old and wise enough to understand what adults are doing to their minds.

No rational person could study religion and walk away thinking they are literally true. They obviously are elelments of human history, and outlines the diversity of cultures as they evolved over thousands of years.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's nonsense!
Nations evolve .. they do not hold the same majority creed ad infinitum.
Yes, but the change is very slow. Unless they are conquered by another nation countries tend to maintain their religious beliefs.
I am not your slave..
I will only "perform" when I wish .. and I see no point in arguing with you.
Take it or leave it.
In other words your claim was just a garbage throw away one.

In a debating section if one cannot support a claim that has been made then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that it is wrong.
 
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