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Ever notice how atheists are virtually always on the opposite side from God on many issues?

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
There's a reason for that, but they cannot understand it due to spiritual blindness. It's not necessarily their fault. God doesn't permit everyone to believe in him - yet. In the end, ALL will believe and follow Jesus. :)

Aw, c'mon. "Thou shalt not steal."-- "Thou shalt not kill."-- plenty of atheists are on board with the idea that there might be something wrong with stealing and killing. They even assume as much in their decision-making.

It isn't God-belief that induces the atheist to conclude such. It is some cluster of other factors.

But, the fact is, every time an atheist reaches such a conclusion, it is a counter example to the thread title.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
It sounds like you're saying 'judge them by their fruits', basically, right?
I'm fine with that.
More that that. The Bible tells Christians that love is the law. The Sermon on the Mount tells Christians how to live their lives. Being human, that's something to be aspired to along with attempts to live those ideals. Some do. Others call themselves Christians but don't even try or further ignore what the religion is about.

One reason so many turn away from religion is the large number whose words and deeds don't reflect even a tiny bit of the teachings but rather seek power, wallow in hate and fear and live lives that are hollow of positivity.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Aw, c'mon. "Thou shalt not steal."-- "Thou shalt not kill."-- plenty of atheists are on board with the idea that there might be something wrong with stealing and killing. They even assume as much in their decision-making.

It isn't God-belief that induces the atheist to conclude such. It is some cluster of other factors.

But, the fact is, every time an atheist reaches such a conclusion, it is a counter example to the thread title.
And to repeat myself, I prefer atheists and the company of such atheists to hypocrites and haters.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
But two religions cannot be simultaneously true, unless one modifies its precepts.

That's a statement from polarity that asserts that if one is right the other must necessarily be wrong. From my perspective it's not black and white but shades of grey where both are partly right and partly wrong.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
But two religions cannot be simultaneously true, unless one modifies its precepts. And, therefore, yes, of course, there is an absolute truth -
Those things don't follow, though. Whilst the two hypothetical religions cannot be simultaneously true, they most certainly can be both false. Indeed, take 2 religions at random, and chances are you and I would agree that they are false (in so far as not being completely accurate and true).


do the principles of the universe change, are there not constants that dictate the weather, the seasons, all creature's gestation period, where food comes from, a herbivore or omnivore's diet, man's disposition towards one another?
Does the sentiment of greed ever change as we knew it several millennia ago, compared to what it is today? The same with love and hate, charity and abuse. Is racism a new concept, did torture or war ever cease to exist?

I think what you're suggesting is that human nature has common elements to it through time. As a student of history, I'd concur. And the world is largely the world. On that, I'd suggest it's only true because of the small window through which we view such things. Greed, charity, abuse, love and hate...there are obviously more commonalities on these things than differences. At the same time, I don't think it's fair or accurate to paint them as eternally consistent and immutable.
Why that demands a single and deliberate Creator, I'm unsure, and how it speaks to the nature and form of that Creator, I am even less sure.

There are objective truths, and I don't mean that altruism or selfishness will always exist, but that the source behind them is precise and predictable. I say this due to the fact that wickedness is senseless, hypocritical and self-destructive - it defies our intellect and sense of pragmatism. Why then is it so prevalent, and again, anticipated. There is a catalyst behind these acts that does not follow the laws of nature, life or humanitarianism by necessity i.e. good and evil.

That takes Christian principles and applies them, though, then coming to the conclusion that a Christian worldview is correct. It is quite self-fulfilling, and binary.
There are a whole litany of religiously honest but destructive actions, ranging from the comical (Pope Gregory's ban denouncement of black cats that quite possibly helped the spread of the Bubonic Plague...) to the horrifyingly tragic (The proclamation of the Fourth Crusade by Pope Innocent III and the support gathered for this by Fulk of Neuilly) which served to weaken Christianity, but required very little in the way of hypocrisy, or self-destruction. I think you see straight lines where they don't exist, and I think that is an inherent outcome of believing in a dichotomous religion. If God exists, and is interested in the affairs of men, even then, the vast majority of destruction is caused by no particular evil, but simply the fact that we're flawed but powerful (in an earthly sense).


Something is very real, very consistent, very predictable. I know for sure, that come tomorrow, someone will fall in love with another, someone will abuse another, someone will have a nightmare, get drunk, obtain a degree, regret their actions, win a trophy. Life has rules, restrictions, limitations, savagery, and compassion. Is there anyone wise enough to establish absolutes based on all the information that we have before us?
You describe humanity and it's variation, then attribute it to a designer because you know somewhere each of these things is true. Life varies. Freedom, security, the very rules, restrictions and limitations you speak of, are not universal. And it can be pretty starkly demonstrated at times.
As for the establishment of absolutes in that...it doesn't take wisdom, but power to establish absolutes. If your God exists, He certainly has that.

I conclude that a divine Being exists, and that man is in need of a saviour. And that saviour is Jesus Christ.
Fair enough. I'd defend your right to do so.

What we believe, reflects on how we regard God. Our beliefs, therefore, can be either indicting or exonerating in the eyes of God. His discretion in revealing Himself in an axiomatic fashion, is due to the fact that He desires man to strive to know Him, as this is the only way to expose the true sentiments of man's heart.
That is quite a Christian view of the world, though. I wonder at the many non-Christian religions...or the many Christian ones not conforming to whatever form of Christianity you have determined true...and how those people are to be judged. But, perhaps you are merely suggesting to judge people by their fruit.

If a man has concluded that Hinduism is the true religion, or Buddhism or Sikhism or Islam, God will decide if the intent within their heart was misguided or not. I will put forth that the majority of all fallacious claims are derived from a deviant and vain, desire and outlook in one's mind.
Assuming your particular form of Christianity is true, I would instead suggest that the majority of all fallacious claims are derived from cultural norms and exposure.

One should concern themselves with their conscience. Yes, there is a practical aspect of abiding by certain rules, but one can also receive consequence for doing a good act, or do the wrong thing but for the right reason. Sacrificing oneself for another, is considered a virtue whether one be religious, or not.

I live in accordance with my moral values, and do so pretty strictly. I don't look at my past with regret due to any particular moral failings. You may or may not agree with my morality, but I suspect few of my actions would cause you pause, apart from my atheism.

You are indifferent towards them?

No. I am not responsible for them, and cannot be reponsible for them. I am responsible for me and mine. Whatever I might think about somebody doing drugs (a far more muddy topic than most suppose), their sexual choices, their religious beliefs...my rights and responsibilities reside around how I behave. I would not (as a simple example) denounce cigarette smoking as a moral failing, even whilst not doing it, teaching my kids not to do it, and seeing it as a less than ideal behaviour.
If asked, I would present my views on such things, and where these behaviours directly impact on others, I have a vested interest in ensuring a societally beneficial outcome as I see it. Perhaps that is what you meant.

No one either desires one to feign their beliefs, or finds it necessary. There is enough constants in life to make a sound and accurate determination of what type of realms exist in the universe - physical and spiritual. There is a religious edifice on every single street corner in the world, since history began. Man is clearly a spiritual creature, always attempting to attain to, or communicate with, the transcendent.

And yet...ask those men on those street corners about the nature of the transcendent, and be prepared for a wide range of answers, many given with certainty and based on personal experience. Ever has it been so. We look at that, and find it informative in completely different ways, I think.

There is no reason for one to sit on the fence, or claim 'subjectivity' in discerning fundamental facts about our universe, and life as we know it.

I don't sit on a fence. And don't claim 'subjectivity' in any disingenuous manner. Rather, I see no objective and absolute truth. I do see common threads which some would define as 'objective', but I don't see them as eternal and timeless. Nor...to be clear...do I use the term 'subjective' to mean 'free for all' or 'without meaning'. Murdering an innocent person is wrong. But to go beyond that...to see how wrong...there is a need to understand context. Hence it is subjective to my mind, as there is no objective measure.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
More that that. The Bible tells Christians that love is the law. The Sermon on the Mount tells Christians how to live their lives. Being human, that's something to be aspired to along with attempts to live those ideals. Some do. Others call themselves Christians but don't even try or further ignore what the religion is about.

To be fair, the Bible tells Christians other things as well, and is open enough so as to demand interpretation. I like your interpretation, but let's not pretend the entire Bible is consistently selling that message.

One reason so many turn away from religion is the large number whose words and deeds don't reflect even a tiny bit of the teachings but rather seek power, wallow in hate and fear and live lives that are hollow of positivity.

Agreed. It was one of the things which gave 8/9 year old me real pause. It wasn't even that the people I saw in church were 'bad'....they were just inconsistent with how I thought people would act if they REALLY believed they were being watched by an all-powerful figure.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
There's a reason for that, but they cannot understand it due to spiritual blindness. It's not necessarily their fault. God doesn't permit everyone to believe in him - yet. In the end, ALL will believe and follow Jesus. :)
That is very unfair of your God.
What makes you say that? You mean after death? Do you think anything except flesh and bones will exist after death?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
There's a reason for that, but they cannot understand it due to spiritual blindness. It's not necessarily their fault. God doesn't permit everyone to believe in him - yet. In the end, ALL will believe and follow Jesus. :)

Which god?

And do you have any falsifiable evidence to indicate such a god exists?

And by my reckoning Jesus was a terrorist, i don't follow terrorists.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
There's a reason for that, but they cannot understand it due to spiritual blindness. It's not necessarily their fault. God doesn't permit everyone to believe in him - yet. In the end, ALL will believe and follow Jesus. :)
The two foundation premises of Atheism are, first, there is no God. Two, all religious works, being from a God that is not real, have to wrong, by default; always throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Most card carrying Atheists can not see a third foundation premise, which is even if God was not real, it may still possible that some things of religion can true and useful. One can just look at the practical things made by religions, such as in construction, art and social organization.

Construction requires science and skills in practical and material things. People stuck in their imagination are usually not that hands on. Such practical things show a sound grasp of material principles. Maybe some religious things are like a bridge between faith and practical knowledge; unique building designs.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The two foundation premises of Atheism are, first, there is no God. Two, all religious works, being from a God that is not real, have to wrong, by default; always throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Most card carrying Atheists can not see a third foundation premise, which is even if God was not real, it may still possible that some things of religion can true and useful. One can just look at the practical things made by religions, such as in construction, art and social organization.

Construction requires science and skills in practical and material things. People stuck in their imagination are usually not that hands on. Such practical things show a sound grasp of material principles. Maybe some religious things are like a bridge between faith and practical knowledge; unique building designs.

Bull.

The only thing atheists have in common is disbelief in god, nothing more nothing less.
You can of course make up whatever you want to massage your ego but its irrelevant to the meaning and definition of atheism
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
The two foundation premises of Atheism are, first, there is no God. Two, all religious works, being from a God that is not real, have to wrong, by default; always throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Most card carrying Atheists can not see a third foundation premise, which is even if God was not real, it may still possible that some things of religion can true and useful. One can just look at the practical things made by religions, such as in construction, art and social organization.

Construction requires science and skills in practical and material things. People stuck in their imagination are usually not that hands on. Such practical things show a sound grasp of material principles. Maybe some religious things are like a bridge between faith and practical knowledge; unique building designs.
This is simply nonsense. There are many good things that have come from religions, and even atheists will probably concede this. What they might point out though is that religions mostly didn't invent any of this - as being the originators of whatever - and that along with the good came a lot of bad - as in conflicts (and silliness) purely arising from having such beliefs. And the fact that much of the good existed prior to any religion existing even if not formulated so much into any particular doctrine also is plainly obvious, especially when we study other species.

But if there is no God then it is rather obvious that much of what people are likely to believe will be wrong, if such also includes no afterlife, no soul, no miracles, no whatever else. One can still retain the morality that mostly is consensual amongst religions - given such is so even without religious beliefs - apart from any believing the Taliban have it right. :eek:
 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
We accept what the Messengers of those ancient religions revealed but we reject the false commentaries and interpretations of their scriptures.
The beliefs and practices of those religions have long since departed from their original source.
Meher Baba asserted much the same thing. People, religious leaders, distorted the teachings for selfish reasons. But there are parts that still ring of truth to me.
I don't buy the premise that humanity's condition is worsening. The assertion that it is approaching a stage of "utter hopelessness" sounds like pure Eeyore.

In the East, the circular view of existence notes were are by some estimates at the very end of a very long dark age, the Kali Yuga. By some estimates we are just in the early few "seconds" of the transition to a new Sat Yuga (golden age).
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Meher Baba asserted much the same thing. People, religious leaders, distorted the teachings for selfish reasons. But there are parts that still ring of truth to me.


In the East, the circular view of existence notes were are by some estimates at the very end of a very long dark age, the Kali Yuga. By some estimates we are just in the early few "seconds" of the transition to a new Sat Yuga (golden age).
Yes, well, life for most people on Earth has improved considerably in the course of my lifetime. We have our challenges, climate change being obviously the big one, and things tend to fall back a bit before advancing further, but on the whole I find a narrative of remorseless decline to be contrary to experience.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The two foundation premises of Atheism are, first, there is no God. Two, all religious works, being from a God that is not real, have to wrong, by default; always throw out the baby with the bathwater.
STOP IT! You know this wrong. We've corrected these dozens of times.
Atheism does not say there is no God. We say there is insufficient evidence for God. We withhold belief, pending evidence.
Atheism does not say religious works are wrong. The shop manual for my car is not from God either, but I don't claim it's wrong.

Are you building a straw man, or are you really this obtuse?
Most card carrying Atheists can not see a third foundation premise, which is even if God was not real, it may still possible that some things of religion can true and useful.
I don't know of a single atheist who would disagree with this premise.
Where are you getting these bizarre ideas about atheists?
One can just look at the practical things made by religions, such as in construction, art and social organization.

Construction requires science and skills in practical and material things. People stuck in their imagination are usually not that hands on. Such practical things show a sound grasp of material principles. Maybe some religious things are like a bridge between faith and practical knowledge; unique building designs.
But religion is not a construction, engineering or handyman's manual, -- with the exception of instructions for breeding mottled goats and sheep using peeled sticks (which does not work, by the way).

The constructors of great art, cathedrals, bridges, aquaducts, &c did not employ religion in their engineering. Their art and engineering methods were godless.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
There's a reason for that, but they cannot understand it due to spiritual blindness. It's not necessarily their fault. God doesn't permit everyone to believe in him - yet. In the end, ALL will believe and follow Jesus. :)

I think atheists may be on the opposite side of what your creeds, theology and prejudice imagine to be God’s will but then so are many believers. Take yourself for example: where is your humility, charity and respect for the mystery that gives rise to god belief? I rest my case.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think atheists may be on the opposite side of what your creeds, theology and prejudice imagine to be God’s will but then so are many believers. Take yourself for example: where is your humility, charity and respect for the mystery that gives rise to god belief? I rest my case.
In my experience, atheists tend to be on the same side as the religious on most major social principles.
 

Rachel Rugelach

Shalom, y'all.
Staff member
"Ever notice how atheists are virtually always on the opposite side from God on many issues?" -- Patrick66

"Ever notice how some theists always imagine that God sides with them on many issues?" -- Rachel Rugelach

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do to their fellows, because it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony (1820-1906), American civil rights leader
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Yes, well, life for most people on Earth has improved considerably in the course of my lifetime. We have our challenges, climate change being obviously the big one, and things tend to fall back a bit before advancing further, but on the whole I find a narrative of remorseless decline to be contrary to experience.
From a material perspective, you are right. And it is also true that the threat of total destruction is much less than when the action of one Soviety submarine commander prevented what could have been the end of humanity.

And as well, what we've seen is to me similar to breaths of "spring" at the end of "winter".

On the other hand, recently we've seen a resurgence of war (Ukraine), the rise of lying (Trump being example #1), the surfacing of fanaticism all over the world where people who lived together peacefully are now at each other's throats etc.

So it's to me a matter of the angle of vision one has.
 
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