EVERLASTING OLD COVENANT (Jew V Christian)

[Redemptionsong]

I hope you understand that I can only take your method of "reasoning" in small doses.

I honestly can't fathom how you figure out which side of the pants your legs go in. But I assume it's because Abel sacrificed a Cain sacrificed crops which proves that Jesus fulfilled the secondary tithe that Levites give to the Priests.

This is about the 'acceptable' sacrifice. Abel made the sacrifice that demonstrated his heart was right with God, and that sacrifice was a lamb. The temporal sacrifice, seen in the parable of God, finds fulfilment in the eternal sacrifice of Christ. [See John 1:29]

 

[metis]

The temporal sacrifice, seen in the parable of God, finds fulfilment in the eternal sacrifice of Christ. [See John 1:29]

That only "works" if one takes the "essence" approach.

In Judaism, human sacrifices were and are obviously not allowed, plus logically how can God be sacrificed to God? IOW, Jesus' "sacrifice" on the cross ends the observance of using the sacrificial system with Jesus being the "final sacrifice", used in a symbolic sense.

 

[RabbiO]

How can not this vision posted below, awaken a searching soul;

View attachment 30085

That is where the Messiah sends G_ds law from.

I appreciate your sense of humor. A lot of people probably think you meant this to be a serious question. Given your years of extensive and intense study into other religions that has enabled you to gain expertise in them, I find it hard to believe that you would have asked it without tongue planted firmly in cheek.

 

[metis]

I know you're too bright to have asked it without tongue firmly in cheek.

I preferred it to be "attached" somewhere else.

 

[RabbiO]

I preferred it to be "attached" somewhere else.

I edited my reply.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I appreciate your sense of humor. A lot of people probably think you meant this to be a serious question. Given your years of extensive and intense study into other religions that has enabled you to gain expertise in them, I find it hard to believe that you would have asked it without tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Good thing is its not my Message and time will show what will be. There is a book that contains the Essence of all past Faiths in G_d, called the Hidden Words. It is addressed to those that claim to have aquired divine knowledge and feel that they guide others to G_d.

It is only for me to point out what I have found and I have fulfilled that aspect of G_d's Covenant in this age. It is G_d that doeth as he willeth.

This is those meditations and you are free to pursue them if you choose.

The Hidden Words

I wish you always well and happy.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Given your years of extensive and intense study into other religions that has enabled you to gain expertise in them

I would also add as the Covernant is fulfilled in Baha'u'llah, he left no doubt and has adressed all Jews and all peoples of all Faiths and no faith. You will note in this following quote that history repeats itself, all the while people wait for their 'King' to unfold as they have deemed it will be so;

"O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muḥammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayán to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty. He, verily, is the Truth, the Knower of things unseen. I, verily, anticipate from you the treatment ye have accorded unto Him that came before Me. To this all things, verily, witness, if ye be of those who hearken. O people of the Bayán! If ye have resolved to shed the blood of Him Whose coming the Báb hath proclaimed, Whose advent Muḥammad hath prophesied, and Whose Revelation Jesus Christ Himself hath announced, behold Me standing, ready and defenseless, before you. Deal with Me after your own desires..."

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

That only "works" if one takes the "essence" approach.

In Judaism, human sacrifices were and are obviously not allowed, plus logically how can God be sacrificed to God? IOW, Jesus' "sacrifice" on the cross ends the observance of using the sacrificial system with Jesus being the "final sacrifice", used in a symbolic sense.

It is not God that is sacrificed to God. The sacrifice is Jesus, the man. At midday, during his crucifixion, it went dark. He bore the sins of many. He cried out, ' My God, my God..' because, whilst bearing our sin, the Spirit of God deserted him. God and sin do not sit well together.
The sacrifice of Jesus is a once for all time sacrifice. It does not indicate an approval of human sacrifice. Let's not forget that Jesus offered himself freely. He gave himself to be killed. He laid down his life for his friends.

 

[rosends]

The sites to which you refer me have the clear intention of dividing Judaism from Christianity, and do, as they acknowledge, leave open the accusation from Christians that all Aish.com's Messianic references are to the second coming.

Actually the sites have the intention of showing that Christianity's explanation for the source material falls outside of what Judaism has always understood those sources to mean.

And if he is the Messiah that fulfils Zechariah 9:9-11, then he must also be the Messiah that will fufil Zech. 8:23 and Zech. 4:9.

This is a logical error. Even if the cited webpages were to say that he filled 2 prophecies, Judaism has no provision for a "second chance" -- his failure to fulfill even one has already invalidated him, so there is no "he will fulfill".

Nowhere does scripture say that there will be two Messiahs, although I have heard this suggested by some Jews.

Scripture actually says that there are and will be many messiahs. The question you are faced with is how you understand what a messiah is. If you understood Judaism, you would understand what this all means.

Further to this, I would like to add something Jesus said after his resurrection. On the road to Emmaus he spoke to two disciples, and the following is recorded:
'Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.'

You may want to call Jesus a liar, but I am content that he spoke these words in the knowledge that they were true.

Why would quoting texts which have no value to me be thought to be at all persuasive?

 

[Wandering Monk]

It is not God that is sacrificed to God. The sacrifice is Jesus, the man. At midday, during his crucifixion, it went dark. He bore the sins of many. He cried out, ' My God, my God..' because, whilst bearing our sin, the Spirit of God deserted him. God and sin do not sit well together.
The sacrifice of Jesus is a once for all time sacrifice. It does not indicate an approval of human sacrifice. Let's not forget that Jesus offered himself freely. He gave himself to be killed. He laid down his life for his friends.

Concerning the death of Julius Caesar, Servius, commenting on Vergil (Georg. 1.466.1–5), says that there was a failure/disappearance/weakness of the sun on the day before the Ides of March from the 6th hour until night.

Caesar's son, Octavian (Augustus) was given the title divi filius, or son of god.

The story of the darkness at the crucifixion of Jesus is probably a counter-myth.

Even the events on the day of his crucifixion have all the elements of a Roman triumph, including the destination at the end being 'the place of the skull' (in Rome, the triumph ended at the Capitoline Hill, literally, the Hill of the Skull.)

 

[metis]

The sacrifice is Jesus, the man.

That would constitute a human sacrifice, which was and is a no-no.

The sacrifice of Jesus is a once for all time sacrifice.

In a symbolic way, yes.

And since the vast majority of Christians are Gentiles, they are not under Jewish Law anyway, and the sacrificial system was mandated under Jewish Law as found in Torah but only applying to Jews.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Actually the sites have the intention of showing that Christianity's explanation for the source material falls outside of what Judaism has always understood those sources to mean.

This is a logical error. Even if the cited webpages were to say that he filled 2 prophecies, Judaism has no provision for a "second chance" -- his failure to fulfill even one has already invalidated him, so there is no "he will fulfill".

Scripture actually says that there are and will be many messiahs. The question you are faced with is how you understand what a messiah is. If you understood Judaism, you would understand what this all means.

Why would quoting texts which have no value to me be thought to be at all persuasive?

The whole point is, Jesus Christ has not failed to fulfil even one prophecy. If he has, give me the scripture!

How can you say that a text [New Testament] has no value if you have never studied it? Do you go on hearsay alone?

Yes, scripture refers to messiahs, but messiahs are all anointed ones who live and die, with the exception of one. That King Messiah is different, and is recognized as being different in scripture. THE Messiah is both the Son of Man and the Son of God. He is born on earth, but has 'the fulness of the Godhead bodily'.

So, where amongst messianic references in Aish.com are the references to the Servant of God? Scripture says, 'I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.' [Zech.3:8]
[The term 'BRANCH' is expressly applied to King Messiah in Rabbinic Writings (The Targum) - according to Alfred Edersheim, who provides a useful list of such references.]

 

[rosends]

The whole point is, Jesus Christ has not failed to fulfil even one prophecy. If he has, give me the scripture!

Here's a start
"The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

and also check out
-He must build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
-He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire world as one (Zechariah 14:9)

How can you say that a text [New Testament] has no value if you have never studied it? Do you go on hearsay alone?

why assume I never studied it? I have read and studied all sorts of fiction in my time.

Yes, scripture refers to messiahs, but messiahs are all anointed ones who live and die, with the exception of one.

No, no exceptions. Fully human. You have your beliefs about it and I have the Jewish ones.

So, where amongst messianic references in Aish.com are the references to the Servant of God?

Here, this page discusses the term "servant." Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

Scripture says, 'I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.' [Zech.3:8]
[The term 'BRANCH' is expressly applied to King Messiah in Rabbinic Writings (The Targum) - according to Alfred Edersheim, who provides a useful list of such references.]

First, the targum is not "rabbinic writings", it is an Aramaic translation/interpretation. Next, Zech 3:8 is, according to many rabbinic authorities, a reference either to Zerubavel or to the future lineage of Davidic kings (who will be anointed as such, thus Messiahs). By the way, the rabbinic authorities in the Jerusalem talmud (Ber, 2:4) say that Tzemach (which you translate as "branch") is a reference to a guy named Menachem. So while some say that it applies to a future anointed human king of the Davidic line, some see it as a reference to someone else.[/QUOTE]

 

[Wandering Monk]

The whole point is, Jesus Christ has not failed to fulfil even one prophecy. If he has, give me the scripture!

How can you say that a text [New Testament] has no value if you have never studied it? Do you go on hearsay alone?

Yes, scripture refers to messiahs, but messiahs are all anointed ones who live and die, with the exception of one. That King Messiah is different, and is recognized as being different in scripture. THE Messiah is both the Son of Man and the Son of God. He is born on earth, but has 'the fulness of the Godhead bodily'.

So, where amongst messianic references in Aish.com are the references to the Servant of God? Scripture says, 'I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.' [Zech.3:8]
[The term 'BRANCH' is expressly applied to King Messiah in Rabbinic Writings (The Targum) - according to Alfred Edersheim, who provides a useful list of such references.]

There is another possibility: someone constructed a story about Jesus using the prophecies.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Here's a start
"The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

and also check out
-He must build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
-He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire world as one (Zechariah 14:9)



why assume I never studied it? I have read and studied all sorts of fiction in my time.

No, no exceptions. Fully human. You have your beliefs about it and I have the Jewish ones.

Here, this page discusses the term "servant." Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

First, the targum is not "rabbinic writings", it is an Aramaic translation/interpretation. Next, Zech 3:8 is, according to many rabbinic authorities, a reference either to Zerubavel or to the future lineage of Davidic kings (who will be anointed as such, thus Messiahs). By the way, the rabbinic authorities in the Jerusalem talmud (Ber, 2:4) say that Tzemach (which you translate as "branch") is a reference to a guy named Menachem. So while some say that it applies to a future anointed human king of the Davidic line, some see it as a reference to someone else.

To be honest, you have to admit there is a suffering messiah in Jewish lore: Ben Yosef. So much of what has been written of this character by post Second Temple Judaism sounds quite a lot like the stories of Jesus, so much so that I times I wonder if there weren't secret believers in the rabbinic schools.

 

[Redemptionsong]

That would constitute a human sacrifice, which was and is a no-no.

In a symbolic way, yes.

And since the vast majority of Christians are Gentiles, they are not under Jewish Law anyway, and the sacrificial system was mandated under Jewish Law as found in Torah but only applying to Jews.

[In a post above you will see discussion of the sacrifices made by Cain and Abel.]

The sacrificial system goes back much further than the covenant with Moses. It goes back to the need for sacrifice, which is sin. And since Adam's transgression, all the sons of Adam fall under sin, and, therefore, there is a need amongst all humanity for a Saviour from sin.

Unlike human sacrifice, where the unwilling victim is 'fed' to the gods, self-sacrifice is the voluntary giving of life for others. Jesus, according to the testimony of scripture, gave his life freely to save others. This was self-sacrifice.

Jesus fulfils not just the covenant made with Moses, but all covenants made by God in scripture! The eternal eclipses the temporal.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's a start
"The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

and also check out
-He must build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
-He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire world as one (Zechariah 14:9)

That is the Message and the result of the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The 3rd temple is Baha'u'llah, this is that Tablet.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

This is given for us to consider;

"..Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words “Be and it is”.
(The Summons of the Lord of Hosts)
www.bahai.org/r/250544972

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To be honest, you have to admit there is a suffering messiah in Jewish lore: Ben Yosef. So much of what has been written of this character by post Second Temple Judaism sounds quite a lot like the stories of Jesus, so much so that I times I wonder if there weren't secret believers in the rabbinic schools.

The story of the Bab also needs to be considered. The Bab came to prepare the world for the Messiah. Mt Carmel was to see the 'Glory of the Lord'.

Isaiah 35:2 "2 Like a lily the land will blossom. It will rejoice and sing with joy. It will have the glory of Lebanon, the majesty of Carmel and Sharon. Everyone will see the glory of the LORD, the majesty of our God."

Song of Solomon 7:5 5 "You hold your head as high as Mount Carmel. Your dangling curls are royal beauty. Your flowing locks could hold a king captive."

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

Here's a start
"The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

and also check out
-He must build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
-He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire world as one (Zechariah 14:9)



why assume I never studied it? I have read and studied all sorts of fiction in my time.

No, no exceptions. Fully human. You have your beliefs about it and I have the Jewish ones.

Here, this page discusses the term "servant." Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

First, the targum is not "rabbinic writings", it is an Aramaic translation/interpretation. Next, Zech 3:8 is, according to many rabbinic authorities, a reference either to Zerubavel or to the future lineage of Davidic kings (who will be anointed as such, thus Messiahs). By the way, the rabbinic authorities in the Jerusalem talmud (Ber, 2:4) say that Tzemach (which you translate as "branch") is a reference to a guy named Menachem. So while some say that it applies to a future anointed human king of the Davidic line, some see it as a reference to someone else.

[/QUOTE]

Lots to consider.

If, as is said in Aish.com, the Suffering Servant is only the nation of Israel and not an individual Messiah, we have some selective use of scripture.

I understand that the Suffering Servant is BOTH the individual Messiah and the nation, Israel. The Messiah is so closely connected to Israel that he can be its representative, but only when Israel is doing the will of God. The Messiah is the perfectly righteous representative of the people as a whole.

If you have a look at Psalm 89, you will see that verse 3 says, 'I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish forever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.'

David is an individual, a messiah, and a servant. How can his seed be established forever? Will this heaven and earth last forever?

In verse 20, it says,'I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:' [Has God also anointed Israel as a nation with his holy oil?]

In verse 45 it says, 'The days of his [David's] youth hast thou [Israel] shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.'

How can verse 45 refer to David the messiah, and not to the Son of David, King Messiah? David lived to be 70 years old. His youth was not shortened. David was also the youngest in the family, not the firstborn [See verse 27]

To me this Psalm speaks plainly about the individual, the Servant, who is also the King Messiah. How do you explain it?

 

[rosends]

To be honest, you have to admit there is a suffering messiah in Jewish lore: Ben Yosef. So much of what has been written of this character by post Second Temple Judaism sounds quite a lot like the stories of Jesus, so much so that I times I wonder if there weren't secret believers in the rabbinic schools.

Bot a lot is known (or has been written about) MBY. In fact, Saadia Gaon says that his presence is not even a sure thing. Much more has been written explaining the servant as the nation.