Every Word, Every Letter in the Quran is up for Criticism

[K.Venugopal]

Allah can create several lives, not only [a]life. He is out of time. He also creates time and he can end it anytime he wants.

Let us not make it out that Allah can do anything. He cannot create Himself, can He? If we can understand that this is a logical impossibility, should we be saying Allah is beyond logic and therefore we are not to apply logic in the case of Allah? Likewise, how can life be divisible? The life in my cat and in me is the same, are they not? That is, that which enlivens my cat and me is one and the same thing. We talk about there being many lives only in the sense that that which enlivens manifests itself in many forms.

While in the realm of belief everything is OK (like in the realm of story-telling), I think in the realm of discovering truth we cannot discard logic. Islam might say Allah created life and Islam existed before Mohammad and Adam was a Muslim. But long before Islam Hinduism has said to the effect that Allah is life and life is Allah. And since our essence is life (what are we if we are not alive?), we are in essence Allah. This sounds to me logical. I would also say that nobody can create time for the simple reason that time does not exist except in the mind of man as a measurement.

I say this much not to deprecate Islam, but to present a different point of view.

 

[maro]

Surah 67.2 of the Quran:
YUSUFALI: He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
PICKTHAL: Who hath created life and death that He may try you which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,
SHAKIR: Who created death and life that He may try you-- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,

i guess in order to understand what is meant by life in the verses , we have to understand the word in its context...the life meant here..

1) the life that opposes death , as the verse says he created (Life and death )...certainly it's the life of the creatures , not that of the creator..because Allah is eternal...his life is not bounded by time, and doesn't end by death

2)the words in Red clarifies whose life is meant here..the life of those who are being Tested...

I don't think the fact that allah is the living can be compared by any means to the life he created...As allah can never be compared to his creation..

[42:11] (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things

Allah also says..

[38:7] Behold when your Rabb said to the angels: "I am about to create a man from clay [ 72] then when I have fashioned him and breathed of My spirit into him, kneel down and prostrate yourselves before him."

Hope that helps...

 

[maro]

Ok then its the scholars of fiqh in each country that permit the wielding of the sword according to their own scholarly conclusions.It is not directly commanded by Allah in the Quran?

The fiqh , or the scholary conclusions is no more than understanding the quran and the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh)..they are not innovations...The faqih have to understand the objectives of the shariah in order to apply it properly..Every quranic order has a reason , and was applied under certain circumstances to achieve certain objectives..The faqih is a person who is not only aware of the order ,but also of the circumstances and objectives..some one who sees the full picture....

When Omar (RAA) dropped the Hadd of robbery during the famine..he was aware that the hadd can't be applied except for a sin , and that the obligation has nullified the sin...

 

[K.Venugopal]

i guess in order to understand what is meant by life in the verses , we have to understand the word in its context...the life meant here..

1) the life that opposes death , as the verse says he created (Life and death )...certainly it's the life of the creatures , not that of the creator..because Allah is eternal...his life is not bounded by time, and doesn't end by death

2)the words in Red clarifies whose life is meant here..the life of those who are being Tested...

I don't think the fact that allah is the living can be compared by any means to the life he created...As allah can never be compared to his creation..

[42:11] (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things

Allah also says..

[38:7] Behold when your Rabb said to the angels: "I am about to create a man from clay [ 72] then when I have fashioned him and breathed of My spirit into him, kneel down and prostrate yourselves before him."

Hope that helps...

[FONT=&quot]My point is not about for what purpose Allah created life. I am simply asking on what basis Allah claims He created life? To say He created life is to say that He created Himself. Because the essence of anything, including Allah, is life. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Life cannot mean one thing here and another thing there. Life is that which enlivens. By what ever name you call that which enlivens or in whatever circumstances you put it, it has to be the same thing. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Death is the ending of something. How can the ending of something be a creation? No one can create death; they can only be a cause of death. Death is but the non-perception of life. In fact, there is no such thing as death in existence. There is only the drama of death. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore the Quran is in error on two counts – for Allah to claim He created life and again to claim that he created death. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When you say Allah’s life is eternal, it simply means He did not create His own life. It also means that He and His life is one and the same thing. Otherwise there would be two eternals in existence – Allah and His life. That contradicts the oneness of Allah. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So this talk about Allah having created life is erroneous. Creation is but the manifestation of Allah in different forms. Science, which says matter (or energy) is neither created nor destroyed, is nearer the truth. But the absolute truth is - existence ever is. In one form or the other – nay, in all and every forms ever.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You say Allah can never be compared to His creation. But the whole of Quran is nothing but the comparison of Allah and His creation when He says all through the Quran to the effect, “How great I am, how puny you are. I am the master, you are the slave.” Everywhere in the Quran it resounds, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“There is nothing whatever like unto Him.” Is this not a comparison? No one else can be doing the comparison as far as the Quran is concerned. For is not every single word in the Quran Allah’s?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Of course, He may have created man from clay. (And clay from what? And that substance from which substance? Finally, the source of creation can only be life. Creation is life in the act of celebrating its existence. The eternal celebration.) Then He says He breathed His spirit into man. Is spirit and life the same? Did He create His spirit? Please clarify. [/FONT]

 

[YmirGF]

[FONT=&quot]My point is not about for what purpose Allah created life. I am simply asking on what basis Allah claims He created life? To say He created life is to say that He created Himself. Because the essence of anything, including Allah, is life.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I would be more inclined to say the essence of all things -- including "Allah" -- is energy. Science back me up on this too. Now, if "Allah" needed to "breathed of My spirit into him" then it is obvious that part of "Allah" is indeed within His creation, otherwise there would be no need for the breathing of His spirit into said creation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Life cannot mean one thing here and another thing there. Life is that which enlivens. By what ever name you call that which enlivens or in whatever circumstances you put it, it has to be the same thing.

It could indeed simply be similar, but even that might cause theological problems in Islam due to the no comparrision rule.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Death is the ending of something. How can the ending of something be a creation? No one can create death; they can only be a cause of death. Death is but the non-perception of life. In fact, there is no such thing as death in existence. There is only the drama of death.

This is a bit of a sticky wicket, imho, as no one has proven that anything at all happens beyond the snuffing out of physical life. It is true that "death" is the cessation of life (as we know it) but that is about as far as any logical discussion can go and remain reasonable given current understanding on the matter. I do agree that it is perfectly ludicrous for any being to be described as the "Creator of death". It is not falsifiable and therefore cannot be taken seriously.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Therefore the Quran is in error on two counts – for Allah to claim He created life and again to claim that he created death.{/quote]Personally, I believe you are on to something here as either claim is illogical. It's not like we can bring "Allah" into the lab and sit him down for questioning and therein lies the slippery slope of this kind of thought.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

When you say Allah’s life is eternal, it simply means He did not create His own life.

I agree. It would imply that "Allah" is uncreated, but that is not reasonable, as when something is said to be "uncreated" then, logically, we persume that "thing" does not in fact exist. What I see the Muslims insisting on is that "Allah" exists outside of time and space which would make him an absentee landlord of the first order. By the same token though, we are told that he "breathed his spirit" to create "life" so that would imply that "Allah" is an inherent PART of his creations as they could not exist without his direct intervention and "spirit". If the later is true, then it is reasonable to conclude that we all trot about with an infinitesimal bit of "Allah" within us, othewise how could we exist?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

So this talk about Allah having created life is erroneous. Creation is but the manifestation of Allah in different forms. Science, which says matter (or energy) is neither created nor destroyed, is nearer the truth. But the absolute truth is - existence ever is. In one form or the other – nay, in all and every forms ever.

It might be rather more accurate to say that existence is energy in a perpetual state of change. For example, "Allah" is also described as being changless and yet he allegedly created a reality that is in and endless state of flux. What I find striking about this is to me the inability to change would be a perfect definition for stagnation, if not death, not to mention how endlessly boring a changless existence would be given that "Allah" is theoretically eternal. It sounds more like a perfect blueprint for mental illness -- and considering this is on a cosmic scale -- the concept is more than a bit frightening.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

You say Allah can never be compared to His creation. But the whole of Quran is nothing but the comparison of Allah and His creation when He says all through the Quran to the effect, “How great I am, how puny you are. I am the master, you are the slave.” Everywhere in the Quran it resounds,

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“There is nothing whatever like unto Him.” Is this not a comparison? No one else can be doing the comparison as far as the Quran is concerned. For is not every single word in the Quran Allah’s?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It does make you wonder doesn't it? Aside from this, the truly great generally do not go on an on about how great they are. If anything they are almost embarrassed by their greatness. It doesn't make sense in reality. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Of course, He may have created man from clay. (And clay from what? And that substance from which substance? Finally, the source of creation can only be life. Creation is life in the act of celebrating its existence. The eternal celebration.) Then He says He breathed His spirit into man. Is spirit and life the same? Did He create His spirit? Please clarify. [/FONT]

Yes, clarification would be helpful. Thanks for giving us your thoughts, sire, it should be fascinating how the resident Muslims respond. No doubt we are both quite wrong.

 

[K.Venugopal]

[FONT=&quot]Dear YmirGF, I quite agree with what you’ve said in your post. You have brought the whole discussion into a fine focus. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who or what am “I” is the question that was pursued by the best of minds and the basis of our spiritual heritage. This spiritual heritage says that we are one in essence with all existence. This heritage is not merely an objective exposition of the “truth”. This spiritual heritage encourages man, at his individual level, to awaken to truth of what he really is. Because only this awakening can solve the greatest of man’s problems – his sense of lack. Our sense of lack causes us to live a degraded life of dependence – a materialistic life, so called - ever in pursuit of material success in the believe that our sense of lack is addressed thereby but which only degrades us further. No belief-system either can address our sense of lack – it only compounds it. When the God believed in creates creatures just to worship Him, we can trace the origin of the sense of lack![/FONT]

 

[maro]

[FONT=&quot]My point is not about for what purpose Allah created life. I am simply asking on what basis Allah claims He created life? To say He created life is to say that He created Himself. Because the essence of anything, including Allah, is life.[/FONT]

First ,i was not telling you about the purpose Allah creating life ,i was simply trying to tell you that the meaning of the word "life" should be understood from the context of its mentioning...we read the quran in context..
second, You can't claim to know what the essence of Allah is
[FONT=&quot]

Life cannot mean one thing here and another thing there. Life is that which enlivens. By what ever name you call that which enlivens or in whatever circumstances you put it, it has to be the same thing.

[/FONT]
You are mistaken . Life can have different defintions according to the context of its mentioning...When you say :life is waht enlivens..you haven't solved the problem..It's like saying : death is what deadens !!!
Biologically , it's the ability to grow through metabolism , reproduce ,adapt and respond !!..But can this definition be applied for this verse for example..

Read with me and tell me what do you think the exact meaning of "life" here

[8:24]O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life; and know that Allah cometh in between a man and his heart, and that it is He to Whom ye shall (all) be gathered.

can this definition be Applied when we talk about the creator ? , Certainly not...our lives is something completely different from that of the divine...Our lives are a gift , not something inherent..have a begining and an end...A gift from the spirit of the eternal living being...someting that we owe to Allah..and should be thankful for

We can't compare the gift to the giver...we can't put both in the same package..we can never put anything with Allah in the same package and then talk with generalization..The only similarity between anything divine and anything human is the "noun"..nothing more ,nothing less..
[FONT=&quot]

Death is the ending of something. How can the ending of something be a creation? No one can create death; they can only be a cause of death. Death is but the non-perception of life. In fact, there is no such thing as death in existence. There is only the drama of death.

[/FONT]
Everything is a creation..How ?..i don't claim to know how..i let that for the creator as it doesn't concern me or affect my temporary life on this planet...I don't claim to be able to undersatnd Everything..i do my best to understand what i believe my mind is qualified to understand..Beyond that , i let the heart accomplish the rest for me..
The five senses and the mind are not the only tools we are gifted with ..As much as they are important , the heart is more important in Knowing God..It's the only tool of certainity..the faith of the heart is much more real and certain for some of the believers than what the five senses percieve..

Allah says :

[22:46] Do they not travel through the land, so that their hearts may thus learn wisdom and their ears may thus learn to hear? Truly it is not their eyes that are blind, but their hearts which are in their breasts.

[FONT=&quot]When you say Allah’s life is eternal, it simply means He did not create His own life. It also means that He and His life is one and the same thing. Otherwise there would be two eternals in existence – Allah and His life. That contradicts the oneness of Allah.[/FONT]

Allah is the first reason for exisatance . His exisatance is a must by itself and not dependant on someting else .He is one..out of time and space..can't be compehended by the minds..but can be approached by the hearts

[FONT=&quot]So this talk about Allah having created life is erroneous.[/FONT]

Allah did create life , as we know it..and don't tell me : what about the life of Allah ?...because as i said , Allah can't be comprehended..i am not going to debate something i have no knowledge about

Allah says :[22:3] And yet among men there are such as dispute about Allah, without knowledge, and follow every evil one obstinate in rebellion!

[22:8] Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without knowledge, without guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,



[FONT=&quot]

Creation is but the manifestation of Allah in different forms.

[/FONT]
In islam , Creation is distinct from the Creator..He is one , unqiue , with no partners or manifestations...

[FONT=&quot]

Science, which says matter (or energy) is neither created nor destroyed, is nearer the truth. But the absolute truth is - existence ever is. In one form or the other – nay, in all and every forms ever.

[/FONT]
Again , Science can only talk about the universe , the creation , but not about the creator..Allah is different from his creation..and we can't apply our measures to him
[FONT=&quot]

You say Allah can never be compared to His creation. But the whole of Quran is nothing but the comparison of Allah and His creation when He says all through the Quran to the effect, “How great I am, how puny you are. I am the master, you are the slave.” Everywhere in the Quran it resounds,

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“There is nothing whatever like unto Him.” Is this not a comparison? No one else can be doing the comparison as far as the Quran is concerned. For is not every single word in the Quran Allah’s?[/FONT]

Well , when i say Allah can never be compared to his creation , i mean that we can't apply the same measures of the creation to the creator
When you talk about life , Energy...etc...You are talking about the creation..that's only the scope of your comprehension..but you can't draw any of these concepts ,or conclusions on the creator because he is above our ability to comprehend..
[FONT=&quot]

Of course, He may have created man from clay. (And clay from what? And that substance from which substance? Finally, the source of creation can only be life.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Clay is the material of creation...it's not only what makes a human being...but also Allah's spirit breathed in us [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Then He says He breathed His spirit into man. Is spirit and life the same? Did He create His spirit? .

[/FONT]
Again , i am not going to debate that with you , because it's someting beyond my knowledge and understanding

 

[maro]

[FONT=&quot] No belief-system either can address our sense of lack – it only compounds it. When the God believed in creates creatures just to worship Him, we can trace the origin of the sense of lack![/FONT]

For us , the sense of lack to Allah is a sign of the life of the heart...when we stay away from him for some time ,we feel that our souls are thirsty to him..that thirst is a sign of health and well being.. Ibn al Qayyim sums it up in a beautiful way ,he says :

"Truly in the heart there is a void that cannot be removed except with the company of Allah.

And in it there is a sadness that cannot be removed except with the happiness of knowing Allah and being true to Him.

And in it there is an emptiness that cannot be filled except
with love for Him and by turning to Him and always remembering Him

And if a person were given all of the world and what is in it, it
would not fill this emptiness."

 

[K.Venugopal]

Dear Maro,

Though in Quran 67:2 Allah claims He created life and death, you maintain we should read it in context as in this verse Allah also talks about trying who among men is best in deed and therefore here Allah is only talking about having created the life of man.

However, elsewhere in the Quran Allah claims to have created everything. Therefore there is no escaping from the context of the Quran that Allah’s claim of having created life means all life. I say this claim of Allah is illogical because Allah could not have created His own life. You counter my statement by saying the life of the Creator is different from the life of the created. Be it as it may. But at least you have to concede two things. One, Allah has a spirit and he breathed that spirit into us. Two, we have the spirit that Allah has. Remember, Allah blew his spirit into us after he created us with clay. Therefore my conclusion is that “clay” is but our form. Our essence is the spirit – the spirit of Allah. Therefore are we in essence not one with Allah?

As you have stated you are unable to answer as to whether spirit and life are one, I would call upon others to throw light on this.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

would call upon others to throw light on this.

Hmmm ... hmmmm ... hmmm ... let me try to throw "light" or "darkness" on it.

Couple of points:

1. Just because God does not do something does not mean He can't do it. I can slap, if I wish, my best friend all the way to the Arctic (or so I believe) but I will not do it because it is foolish to do such a thing. God says:
Wa huwa Ala' Kulle Shai-en Qadeer
He is powerful over all things. Note that the word "Shai'" here has the same root as the word "Sha'" where Shai' means "things" and Sha' means "will". As in the popular Muslim saying "Insha'Allah". So Allah is powerful over all things He wishes to do. He can do everything. But He does that which He pleases. Not creating, for example, a duplicate of Himself does not mean He can't create a duplicate but rather that He does not will to create such a duplicate.

2. Why does God make us worship Him has nearly nothing to do with this debate? Stay on the Quran forum and I assure you that I will start this "naming competition" thread that I hope sheds some light on the issue.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Just because God does not do something does not mean He can't do it... So Allah is powerful over all things He wishes to do. He can do everything. But He does that which He pleases. Not creating, for example, a duplicate of Himself does not mean He can't create a duplicate but rather that He does not will to create such a duplicate.

Maro said she did not know if Allah's spirit and Allah's life are one. Do you? If Allah created man with His spirit, are we not Allah in essence?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

"His spirit" does not mean that He put a part of Himself into us. That would be tantamount to polytheism in that all of us are a part of God. In fact, the word "Rooh" translated to "spirit" is used to denote Divine Revelation. Jesus being guided with the "Holy Spirit" is stated many times in the Quran. Man being fashioned into clay and then God's spirit being breathed into man refers to the first Divine Revelation but also to the many subsequent revelations.

Remember Allah is not limited to having or requiring a soul. That would make Him dependant on the soul and would, in effect, not make him God anymore because God must be All-Power and completely Independant. If I want to worship God I want to worship the Ultimate Cause of all causes. But if God is dependant on the soul than I might as well worship the soul.

 

[K.Venugopal]

"His spirit" does not mean that He put a part of Himself into us. That would be tantamount to polytheism in that all of us are a part of God. In fact, the word "Rooh" translated to "spirit" is used to denote Divine Revelation. Jesus being guided with the "Holy Spirit" is stated many times in the Quran. Man being fashioned into clay and then God's spirit being breathed into man refers to the first Divine Revelation but also to the many subsequent revelations.

Your definition of ‘spirit’ as revelation is interesting. However, you have not answered my original question – Did Allah create life?

Remember Allah is not limited to having or requiring a soul. That would make Him dependant on the soul and would, in effect, not make him God anymore because God must be All-Power and completely Independant. If I want to worship God I want to worship the Ultimate Cause of all causes. But if God is dependant on the soul than I might as well worship the soul.

What about life? Is Allah beyond life or does He not require life?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Did Allah create life?

What about life? Is Allah beyond life or does He not require life?

You get a yes on both counts.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Dear tariqkhwaja, According to the Quran, among the 99 names of Allah is the name Al-Hayy - the Ever-Living. I understand that it is the same Arabic word ‘Hayy’ that used in the Quran when Allah claims to have created life. Does this not prove that the life that Allah claims to have created is the same life that Allah has? Please clarify.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ashraf.html

 

[gnostic]

I wouldn't say that every letter needs to be held under scrutiny. But yes, every word and passage in the Qur'an can be called under question - dissected and analyzed. The Qur'an should be treated no different from the bible or all other scriptures.

Even the claim that God is the author of the Qur'an is also questionable; debatable.

And the claim to every word being holy is questionable; debatable.

I find such claims to being ridiculous nonsenses, just as I found tariqkhwaja's other topic about Arabic being the mother of all languages, as laughable.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Gnostic I am glad you posted here because I had forgotten about Venugopal's query.

So the fact is that I do not know of an answer that resolves the dilemma you have posted. And I agree Venugopal that it is, indeed, a dilemma and I will try to resolve it and I hope that I will be able to resolve it for you and for myself.

I believe the key, though, lies in how the attribute "Al Hayy" applies to God and that is where I plan to start my research.

 

[K.Venugopal]

So the fact is that I do not know of an answer that resolves the dilemma you have posted. And I agree Venugopal that it is, indeed, a dilemma and I will try to resolve it and I hope that I will be able to resolve it for you and for myself.

I believe the key, though, lies in how the attribute "Al Hayy" applies to God and that is where I plan to start my research.

The dilemma occurs because of the belief that the Creator and His creation are separate. Islam has erred in not seeing all existence as one. Except for some Sufis, Muslims on the whole believe that any identification with Allah beyond being a perfect slave is "shirk". Hinduism says that the essential nature of everything is divine and divinity, being man's essential nature also, can be sought by all if we turn "within" through meditative processes. Even the division between essential nature and superficial nature is artificial because everything resolves into the oneness of existence. That which is superficial are only the forms and the forms change in the dance of life's celebrations, just as a dancer’s pose changes all the time he is dancing. But the dance and the dancer is not separate.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

The dance and the dancer might not be seperate. But the art and the artist are. The Quran categorically states the Creator and Creation to be seperate. But my task is to resolve the dilemma that seems to negate the prior assertion.

 

[maro]

The dilemma occurs because of the belief that the Creator and His creation are separate. Islam has erred in not seeing all existence as one. Except for some Sufis, Muslims on the whole believe that any identification with Allah beyond being a perfect slave is "shirk". Hinduism says that the essential nature of everything is divine and divinity, being man's essential nature also, can be sought by all if we turn "within" through meditative processes. Even the division between essential nature and superficial nature is artificial because everything resolves into the oneness of existence. That which is superficial are only the forms and the forms change in the dance of life's celebrations, just as a dancer’s pose changes all the time he is dancing. But the dance and the dancer is not separate.

Actually , there is no dilemma , although you insist to create one out of nothing...Allah (SWA) is eternally living and he created the life that ought to be created..the one with a begining and end..our lives...is that too hard to understand ?....For what purpose he created it ?...To test us
i am sorry to say that , but the question :did allah create himself ?..is just nonsense and a meaningless question...Allah is the eternal uncaused cause of Everything....And thus , he did actually create everything.....
And also i never understood or digested the oness of existence dogma...The universe =God ....and god =the universe......what benefit i get from that ?...i only added a new name to the universe which is "God " without adding any real meaning or knowledge to my mind...