Everyone gets to Heaven if we destroy Christianity

[Prometheus]

This is still exactly my point though. If no one heard about Christ then no one could fully learn about, accept and love him. If they can't do that then they can't reject him in a way which would warrant Hell. So by not learning about Christ you're safe from Hell.

 

[yuvgotmel]

This is still exactly my point though. If no one heard about Christ then no one could fully learn about, accept and love him. If they can't do that then they can't reject him in a way which would warrant Hell. So by not learning about Christ you're safe from Hell.

I should start a new thread explaining the destruction methods of the world, according to various ancient beliefs, such as the Mayan, who believed that the previous destruction of the earth was by water (flood) and the next destruction of the world would be by fire.

If a soul is not unified with the light of the All (a kaleidoscopic reality beyond three-dimensional form) that soul might then experience the "hell" (so to speak) through the next destruction phase.


...This gets into the Egyptian and Jewish beliefs as well, as part of the soul is earth-bound. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=810030&postcount=5

 

[James the Persian]

This is still exactly my point though. If no one heard about Christ then no one could fully learn about, accept and love him. If they can't do that then they can't reject him in a way which would warrant Hell. So by not learning about Christ you're safe from Hell.

But your argument is fatally flawed. Everyone will find out the truth after death. If you didn't follow Christ when alive (in our view) you're still going to meet your maker, aren't you? So how does destroying the Church on earth (which is what you're talking about) make anyone safe from Hell? Honestly, your view presupposes materialism to such a degree that it appears that you even have trouble eschewing it when talking of the afterlife. Or do you think that simply destroying human beliefs about God (I know you don't believe but just accept his existance for a moment for the sake of argument) would have some sort of an effect upon the very nature of God?

James

 

[Prometheus]

So you equate "meeting your maker" as going to Heaven? I thought that was just judgment and either Heaven or Hell follows?

 

[James the Persian]

So you equate "meeting your maker" as going to Heaven? I thought that was just judgment and either Heaven or Hell follows?

Well, I did point out that for us salvation was eternal communion with God and so I would have thought the answer to that question was pretty obvious. Not that it actually makes any difference mind. Even if it were a judgement followed by Heaven or Hell as you suggest, if that judgement were determined on how we respond to God, it really doesn't matter if we responded to Him 60 years before our death or only when we first meet Him in eternity does it? All your suggestion would do is put off the time at which we need to respond, not get rid of it entirely.

James

 

[porkchop]

This is still exactly my point though. If no one heard about Christ then no one could fully learn about, accept and love him. If they can't do that then they can't reject him in a way which would warrant Hell. So by not learning about Christ you're safe from Hell.

God has the foreknowledge to know who will accept Him and who will not, so if He knows someone living in the jungle who has no chance of hearing the gospel would accept Him if they heard it, He will send someone ( missionaries) to tell them the good news.
I think that anyone who knows nothing of God would, as they grow up, realise that there had to be a creator of the creation around them, and to question where they come from and to search, and God knows everyones heart and will send forth accordingly. Fortunately, in the age we are in, it is likely that all will get a chance to hear the Word of God thanks to modern technology and the like.
So im sorry to say that if you never got told the gospel all your life and never accepted Jesus, you would go to hell. Oh, best add on an IMO.
:cover: (awaits the backlashing!):cover:

 

[Prometheus]

All your suggestion would do is put off the time at which we need to respond, not get rid of it entirely.

So...Christianity isn't needed after all.

No longer need we waste hours of our lives and a lot of our money on churches. We can just play catch up when we die.

God has the foreknowledge to know who will accept Him and who will not, so if He knows someone living in the jungle who has no chance of hearing the gospel would accept Him if they heard it, He will send someone ( missionaries) to tell them the good news.

So God purposefully created people He knew would never accept Him just so He could send them to Hell?

 

[James the Persian]

So...Christianity isn't needed after all.

No longer need we waste hours of our lives and a lot of our money on churches. We can just play catch up when we die.

I've always found the idea that God needs anything from us to be decidedly peculiar in any case. We don't worship God because we have to, out of fear that He will damn us if we don't, but because we love Him and out of gratitude for what He has already done for us. Your understanding is, however, not uncommon, particularly in the west. Unfortunately, that appears to be what you get when religion becomes an almost intellectual faith rather than a way of life. Sola fide (like all the other solas) has an awful lot to answer for, not least because of its Gnosticising tendencies.

James

 

[James the Persian]

So im sorry to say that if you never got told the gospel all your life and never accepted Jesus, you would go to hell. Oh, best add on an IMO.
:cover: (awaits the backlashing!):cover:

So does that mean that everyone prior to the Incarnation is damned? What about the OT prophets? Seems a bit harsh for a God who is Love to me.

James

 

[Prometheus]

It is unfortunate that so many people follow religions only out of fear of punishment or hope of reward. I can agree with that completely.

 

[michel]

Many are of the belief that if you never hear about Christ then you will be held blameless in your ignorance and go to Heaven. So, I'm really, really confused why people would evangelize. If you don't go around preaching the gospel to people, then they won't learn about it and they'll go to Heaven. The funny thing is, supposedly you're preaching to people so that they can accept Christ and go to Heaven.

So, for every one you preach to who accepts Christ, it's all fine and dandy, but when someone denies Christ, haven't you basically just damned them?

I don't believe I could have missed this thread (but then, I have been rather busy lately)...................

That is not my belief; my belief (whether you accept or deny Christ) is that even at the time of death, those who had previously denied Christ will be given a chance to "accept him".

As to what makes one worthy of Heaven (be you an evil doer or a non religious saint) - if you understand those - is what is in your heart.

If your heart has been full of love, and respect and kindness for all of God's world (as we know it as humans), then you will still be saved............

 

[James the Persian]

It is unfortunate that so many people follow religions only out of fear of punishment or hope of reward. I can agree with that completely.

In my opinion that is, bar none, the worst reason to believe. There's an interesting saying/prayer about asking to be denied heaven if you believe in order to gain reward and to be damned if you believe out of fear of hell. Can't remember the exact wording and I've a feeling it's Muslim, but I have absolutely no argument with the idea.

James

 

[James the Persian]

Not the saying I was actually thinking of, but an extract from St. John Cassian's Conferences, which addresses the issue of the relative merits of doing good for its own sake as opposed to from hope of reward or fear of punishment:

'For it is one thing for a man in his delight at some present good to hate the stains of sins and of the flesh, and another thing to check unlawful desires by contemplating the future reward; and it is one thing to fear present loss and another to dread future punishment. Lastly it is a much greater thing to be unwilling to forsake good for good's own sake, than it is to withhold consent from evil for fear of evil. For in the former case the good is voluntary, but in the latter it is constrained and as it were violently forced out of a reluctant party either by fear of punishment or by greed of reward. For one who abstains from the allurements of sin owing to fear, will whenever the obstacle of fear is removed, once more return to what he loves and thus will not continually acquire any stability in good' - from St. John Cassian, Conference 11, Chapter 8

James

 

[sojourner]

You're looking at it like we think that Christianity is nothing more than our ticket to a free lunch. Nothing could be further from the truth. We don't worship, and follow the commandments, and love our neighbor, and evangelize just so we can reap a reward. That's equating Christianity to using a Discover card just for the purchase rewards.

Christianity just is not that base. If our impetus for doing something is "what's in it for me," then that is antithetical to the very nature of Christianity, which is selfless love. We engage in our religion because we love God. We come together to say, "Thank you for being our God. What can we do to return your goodness?" We talk to people about Jesus, not because we "want them to go to heaven," but for the basic reason that Jesus is our savior. Jesus sets us free from the tyranny of self.

Christianity is really more about creating a lifestyle and a society in which selfless love is celebrated, in which the lifting of both the individual and humanity at large is celebrated, and in which we are freed from the very sort of petty, picayune legalism that you seem to want to thrust upon the religion.

 

[James the Persian]

You're looking at it like we think that Christianity is nothing more than our ticket to a free lunch. Nothing could be further from the truth. We don't worship, and follow the commandments, and love our neighbor, and evangelize just so we can reap a reward. That's equating Christianity to using a Discover card just for the purchase rewards.

Christianity just is not that base. If our impetus for doing something is "what's in it for me," then that is antithetical to the very nature of Christianity, which is selfless love. We engage in our religion because we love God. We come together to say, "Thank you for being our God. What can we do to return your goodness?" We talk to people about Jesus, not because we "want them to go to heaven," but for the basic reason that Jesus is our savior. Jesus sets us free from the tyranny of self.

Christianity is really more about creating a lifestyle and a society in which selfless love is celebrated, in which the lifting of both the individual and humanity at large is celebrated, and in which we are freed from the very sort of petty, picayune legalism that you seem to want to thrust upon the religion.

Indeed. Shame the sytem won't let me give you any frubals.

James

 

[Prometheus]

I still would say if you can't be deserving of Hell without knowing Jesus yet you can be deserving of Heaven without knowing him, it may be better in the end for us to simply not know of him.

Here's an analogy I've heard which inspired this thread.

It's as if someone comes to you and offers you a bushel of free apples. You take a bite of one and find that it is delicious. Then this person tells you that you have now been poisoned. These are a special kind of apple which, if you stop eating them, you will die. However, as long as you keep eating them, you'll be fine.

So although they are perfectly delicious to eat and if you eat only one a day you'll be fine, they are still poisonous. You now are obligated to eat them or you will die. You were perfectly fine before you ate one, so they really weren't necessary to begin with.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

There is also the question of what happens to those who hear the gospel, and yet can't assimilate Christian cosmology into their worldview. Isn't this denying Christ? If so, do they not get a pass to heaven?

My own view is that Christianity is here for those who need it. Those who follow other ways are not damned; they are simply finding their own way about spirituality. We each have our personal way of looking at the world and going about this business of existing.

 

[sojourner]

There is also the question of what happens to those who hear the gospel, and yet can't assimilate Christian cosmology into their worldview. Isn't this denying Christ? If so, do they not get a pass to heaven?

My own view is that Christianity is here for those who need it. Those who follow other ways are not damned; they are simply finding their own way about spirituality. We each have our personal way of looking at the world and going about this business of existing.

That's why Christianity is rightly not a set of doctrines to be believed, but a way of life to be followed.

 

[sojourner]

I still would say if you can't be deserving of Hell without knowing Jesus yet you can be deserving of Heaven without knowing him, it may be better in the end for us to simply not know of him.

Here's an analogy I've heard which inspired this thread.

It's as if someone comes to you and offers you a bushel of free apples. You take a bite of one and find that it is delicious. Then this person tells you that you have now been poisoned. These are a special kind of apple which, if you stop eating them, you will die. However, as long as you keep eating them, you'll be fine.

So although they are perfectly delicious to eat and if you eat only one a day you'll be fine, they are still poisonous. You now are obligated to eat them or you will die. You were perfectly fine before you ate one, so they really weren't necessary to begin with.

Here's the fallacy in your argument: We can be deserving of hell...and we are deserving of hell -- even if we do know about Jesus. That's why grace is a gift. Even though we deserve hell, God chooses to save us from that fate. It has nothing to do with "knowing." It has to do with what God chooses to do for us. if we deserve heaven, it's because God chooses to make us worthy of heaven. Those who believe this are called "Christians." Those who do not are called something else, but "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

 

[Prometheus]

It has to do with what God chooses to do for us. if we deserve heaven, it's because God chooses to make us worthy of heaven.

That sounds very Calvinist to me.