Everyone gets to Heaven if we destroy Christianity

[Green Gaia]

Many are of the belief that if you never hear about Christ then you will be held blameless in your ignorance and go to Heaven. So, I'm really, really confused why people would evangelize. If you don't go around preaching the gospel to people, then they won't learn about it and they'll go to Heaven. The funny thing is, supposedly you're preaching to people so that they can accept Christ and go to Heaven.

So, for every one you preach to who accepts Christ, it's all fine and dandy, but when someone denies Christ, haven't you basically just damned them?

There is no verifiable evidence of a place of eternal damnation. Therefore, the question is pointless. You're arguing against a myth, which can never be argued logically and has little use for how we live our daily lives, which is what is important anyway, right?

 

[Wandered Off]

Even though we deserve hell, God chooses to save us from that fate. ... if we deserve heaven, it's because God chooses to make us worthy of heaven.

The way I see it, nobody "deserves" Hell OR Heaven. "What we deserve" is simply a temporal concept rooted in actions of this life. If Heaven or Hell is eternal, then trying to use temporal acts as admission criteria is kind of like dividing by zero. It just doesn't work. Nothing we can do in our tiny life could cause us to "deserve" anything eternal. To me, that's where grace would come in if there were an afterlife.

 

[sojourner]

That sounds very Calvinist to me.

Not at all. Calvin was talking about what must happen in order for us to get to heaven. But grace is dependent upon God. And God has chosen to extend grace to all. it is, however, still incumbent upon us to recognize that grace and so let it change our lives that we are allowed to be lifted above what we now are. Those who recognize that grace at work in them respond in some religious way (not necessarily Christian). That divorces our practice of religion from "what gets us to heaven," a distinction not made in the Calvinist view.

 

[lunamoth]

Indeed. Shame the sytem won't let me give you any frubals.

James

Got you covered James. Well said Soj.

luna

 

[sojourner]

The way I see it, nobody "deserves" Hell OR Heaven. "What we deserve" is simply a temporal concept rooted in actions of this life. If Heaven or Hell is eternal, then trying to use temporal acts as admission criteria is kind of like dividing by zero. It just doesn't work. Nothing we can do in our tiny life could cause us to "deserve" anything eternal. To me, that's where grace would come in if there were an afterlife.

That is a decidedly non-Christian viewpoint. If humanity was not fallen, it would not have been necessary for God to become one of us in order to reconcile us to God's self. That sort of throws the whole Christian impetus out the window.

 

[Runlikethewind]

I still would say if you can't be deserving of Hell without knowing Jesus yet you can be deserving of Heaven without knowing him, it may be better in the end for us to simply not know of him.

This is the whole flaw in your arguments. You seem to think that if one is ignorant of Christ then one is safe, that if one does not know the law then one cannot be judged by it, if one does not know what sin is then one cannot sin, so if no one ever knows Christ then there is no way for anyone to be condemned. The problem is that although it is possible for those who have never heard the gospel to be saved, ignorance is no guarantee of salvation. one could still be judged even in their ignorance for the laws of God are written on our hearts and minds.

Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Not only is this scripturally true but even scientists are beginning to believe that moral thought is inherent in humans as part of the evolutionary process. That altruistic behavior is a part of who we are by nature psychologically. Those who never hear of Christ will still be judged for their actions. Ignorance is not a guarantee of salvation, one who never hears of Christ can still go to hell. Christianity increases the possibility for those to be saved by growing in our understanding and knowledge of God. Your whole argument seems to be based on the belief that ignorance of Christ will make one exempt from judgment. This, I think, is flawed.

 

[porkchop]

So does that mean that everyone prior to the Incarnation is damned? What about the OT prophets? Seems a bit harsh for a God who is Love to me.

James

No, i dont believe that everyone before the incarnation was damned, especially the prophets, they were awaiting Jesus in abrahams bosom.

 

[lunamoth]

That is a decidedly non-Christian viewpoint. If humanity was not fallen, it would not have been necessary for God to become one of us in order to reconcile us to God's self. That sort of throws the whole Christian impetus out the window.

I think that when one is thinking of hell in terms of a place of eternal torment in flames and heaven as a place of eternal bliss it makes the whole Christian view of the Fall and Redemption harsh, unreasonable, monstrous. But, if you think of it in terms of relationship with God and each other, it really changes the timbre of the whole conversation.

2 c

 

[Reverend Rick]

Many are of the belief that if you never hear about Christ then you will be held blameless in your ignorance and go to Heaven. So, I'm really, really confused why people would evangelize.

Because when the word of God is spread through out the whole planet and every ear has heard, the end times will be near. We will not have to put up with illness and terrible people any more. We will not have Satan to deceive us.

The wicked will receive their just reward. Vengeance will be manifested and the Lord will be the deliverer.

 

[sojourner]

Vengeance will be manifested? Do you really see God as vengeful?

 

[Prometheus]

The problem is that although it is possible for those who have never heard the gospel to be saved, ignorance is no guarantee of salvation. one could still be judged even in their ignorance for the laws of God are written on our hearts and minds.

I would strongly agree with you that we have morality without religion and can still commit willful wrong-doing without it as well.

Still, I would have to ask if, in the afterlife, is there greater reward for those who learn of Christ and accept him? Is there greater punishment if you learn of Christ and do not accept him?

 

[Comprehend]

Many are of the belief that if you never hear about Christ then you will be held blameless in your ignorance and go to Heaven. So, I'm really, really confused why people would evangelize. If you don't go around preaching the gospel to people, then they won't learn about it and they'll go to Heaven. The funny thing is, supposedly you're preaching to people so that they can accept Christ and go to Heaven.

So, for every one you preach to who accepts Christ, it's all fine and dandy, but when someone denies Christ, haven't you basically just damned them?

That would be interesting if it actually worked that way but I don't believe it does. It is actually a good criticism of MSC belief.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Vengeance will be manifested? Do you really see God as vengeful?

Well let's see. Right after Noah and the flood, he already said what he was going to do next time. First water then fire.

Vengeance is mine, said the Lord.

Read the book of Revelations.

To answer your question, yes, God is very jealous and vengeful.

 

[Prometheus]

Double post.

*throws a smoke bomb and vanishes*

Neeenja!

 

[Reverend Rick]

I would strongly agree with you that we have morality without religion and can still commit willful wrong-doing without it as well.

Still, I would have to ask if, in the afterlife, is there greater reward for those who learn of Christ and accept him? Is there greater punishment if you learn of Christ and do not accept him?

He who doubts is damned.

 

[roli]

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

People can't sin until they learn the law. If you never hear the gospel, you never learn the law. Therefore, if you never hear the gospel you can't sin.

That verse is referring to a time before Moses came and received the 10 Commandments,but the law is here and is on the heart of every man.
I am sorry you have that misconception ,
Rom 6:23but For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The problem is that the law is not on tablets anymore but ingraved on the heart and the mind
Hbr 8:10For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


The only way a man can neeter heaven is through Christ by the Holy Spirit
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Regardless of the law you will be perish if you do not receive Christ as the full payment of sins
Rom 2:12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

If all you have is nature and still don't turn to God you will be condemned
Rom 1:20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

 

[Green Gaia]

To answer your question, yes, God is very jealous and vengeful.

He who doubts is damned.

Statements like these still baffle me. It's the furthest from my concept of what and how "God" is. I'm not picking on you, Rick. If your faith makes you happy and fulfilled, so be it. But these statements reminded me why I'm not a Christian anymore.

 

[roli]

He who doubts is damned.

He who does not repent of sin and believe and receive Christ as Lord and Savior will be condemned.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He who doubts is as James says:
Jam 1:5If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways

 

[yuvgotmel]

I should start a new thread explaining the destruction methods of the world, according to various ancient beliefs, such as the Mayan, who believed that the previous destruction of the earth was by water (flood) and the next destruction of the world would be by fire.

If a soul is not unified with the light of the All (a kaleidoscopic reality beyond three-dimensional form) that soul might then experience the "hell" (so to speak) through the next destruction phase.


...This gets into the Egyptian and Jewish beliefs as well, as part of the soul is earth-bound. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=810030&postcount=5

What follows is the New Testament account of the previous/coming earth destructions. Notice that the type of hell described here refers to a fire that will destroy the earth.:

2 Peter 3:5-13

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


​

 

[lunamoth]

*sigh*